You’re stating things that have been known for decades, since the original Paleo concept came out.
My point was that people focused on Ketosis often equate fasting with it, rather than understanding it’s really about fat based nutrition.
Born in Ketosis
240lbfatloss
(Ken)
#27
Ketosis is merely one minor energy pathway of Lipolysis. As is Gluconeogenesis. The primary fuel source is Fatty Acids.
amber
(L. Amber O'Hearn)
#28
I’m not claiming this is new information, but in my experience even most ketogenic experts don’t understand this. I agree that ketosis is not primarily about fasting. It only seems that way to people enmeshed in a high carb society where the way you eat means you’d have to not eat to be in ketosis. Ketosis is a normal, default state starting before birth, and it really has nothing to do with fasting.
amber
(L. Amber O'Hearn)
#29
Sure. Of course. But ketosis is a marker of that state. It’s not inaccurate to call it ketosis, since we can measure that. Babies are in lipolysis and ketosis, and humans can do that at any stage while growing and maintaining, because we have the ability to run off fat while anabolic in a way that other animals don’t.
240lbfatloss
(Ken)
#31
My point exactly, it is a marker of Lipolysis, not the Driver. The real driver of Lipolysis is sustained Glucagon secretion, rather than focusing on Ketosis and especially ketone levels.
Many following Keto seem to think fasting is necesary, especially to break stalls, when in reality limited Carb intake for metabolic purposes works as well. This is much more in line with evolutionary biochemistry.
I point I’ve made in the past is that Fasting is historically related to Carb based cultures where the benefits would be significant. I have yet to find an example of it being related to any Paleo culture.
Lyle McDonald chose the term “Ketogenic Diet” because he wrote his book right in the midst of the anti fat nonsense. If he’d called it “The Fat Based Diet” he probably would not have sold many copies.
Robert_Johnson
(Consensus is Politics)
#32
You beat me to the punch @juice.
As much as I would like to make that an argument for the keto way of eating, I wouldn’t have any actual science, yet, to back it up. That being said, I have only heard this to be true, from several sources, that when we are born, we are initially in a ketogenic state. I would really like to see data on this and not consensus.
[edit: @amber; I had originally began typing this on my iPhone several hours ago finishing up on it recently. I didn’t want you to think I was saying anything negative about the things you cited. I’ll be checking them all out later. This is one subject matter that highly interests me. Thank you!]
Silvian
(Nicole Silvia)
#33
Breast milk can’t be ketogenic. It’s REALLY sweet. Like a milkshake. Like sugar water.
The first thing the baby works on is gaining weight and they get very chubby.
Not sure how it relates to us. But interesting topic!
Robert_Johnson
(Consensus is Politics)
#34
Indeed, and as was mentioned it’s about 40% sugars. Yet, the babies remain in a ketogenic state.
240lbfatloss
(Ken)
#35
The whole basis of what is now called “Ketogenic” is the original PaleoDiet concept. It is following the Evolutionary, Whole Animal macro of 60-35-5 percent. Various Gurus have tweaked it since.
I suggest everyone read Cordain’s “Cereal Grain’s: Humanity’s Double-Edged Sword” if you really want to understand the basis of this WOE. He wasn’t the first, but his paper and involvement in Paleodiet internet groups (I was a member) really kicked things off.
You’ll find that little is actually new, but much of current info being put out is rehash and validation of the early Paleo concept.
amber
(L. Amber O'Hearn)
#37
Heh. I assume you didn’t read the article I posted above, which starts like this:
Subsequent to that article I’ve learned more:
- Breast milk contains lauric acid, which is an MCT
- Relative brain size / brain energy requirements in babies is so much higher than in adults, that this is the likely driver
atomicspacebunny
(Bunny)
#38
I see what your saying just because one does not have a glucose metabolism verses ketogenic (bHB and acetoacetate) metabolism for energy does not mean we are fasting (IGF-1), although we are more likely to be in ketosis when we are in a extended fasted state rather than using glucose for energy and not really following a ketogenic diet long-term (fat-adapted) is where the confusion comes in?
Let’s say for example 3,000 years ago I’m looking for food to eat and IGF-1 is spiking (body is building tissue in a anabolic state vs. catabolic) and all I can find to eat is wild game (meat), then I would be using glucagon to regulate glucose and then later as the seasonal climate gets warmer (if I don’t live in a tropical region) I find fruit and veggies, so I would be switching to carbohydrates using insulin to regulate glucose and not eating both together in a perennial way which may not be such a good thing?
Back to the here and now; wouldn’t it be logical for us herbivores that eat meat to eat our protein first then eat our veggies and then our fruit at different time frames (if not in hours but maybe in days or even months?) rather than at the same time? Just as it may not be logical to eat sugar and fat together at the same time or at more extremely distant time frames? (i.e. food group and amount cycling)
To illustrate this further (those charts probably reflect the results of sugar burners?):
Do we want low or high IGF-1? Or is “cycling” the key? [48:00]
Figure 1. Predicted HR for the association between IGF-I and all-cause mortality. [Burgers et al., 2011]
Image credit: Meta-analysis and dose-response metaregression: circulating insulin-like growth factor I (IGF-I) and mortality (Burgers et al., 2011)
Figure 2. Relationship between serum IGF-1 levels and risk of (A) all-cause mortality (B) cancer mortality and © cardiovascular disease (CVD) mortality. [Svensson et al., 2012]
Image credit: Both Low and High Serum IGF-I Levels Associate with Cancer Mortality in Older Men (Svensson et al., 2012). …More
Related:
atomicspacebunny
(Bunny)
#39
Some other interesting things about human breast milk:
”…Lauric acid and capric acid comprise about 20% of total saturated fatty acids found in breast milk. …” “… the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition has shown that lactating mothers who eat coconut oil and other coconut products, have significantly increased levels of lauric acid and capric acid in their breast milk, creating milk rich in health promoting nutrients. …” …More
Lipid Quality in Infant Nutrition: Current Knowledge and Future Opportunities
SlowBurnMary
#40
There’s also huge difference in maternal blood chemistry and hormonal balance when you compare S.A.D. and ancestral ways of eating - which does impact prenatal development, for sure. I pondered this a lot when I got established in 100% fat adaptation around month 5-6 keto and went through an inexplicable regression that involved panic attacks about something new. It was that my brain had reached a state of extended, functional nourishment that it had never had before in all its previous development. A metabolic health missing in my maternal line for several generations back.
But going back even further, to my ancient land-based ancestors before colonization and forced relocations, there was high-fat/low carb way of life. So on one hand keto helped connect me to my ancient ancestors - and on the other hand, it’s also involved some work to integrate and to bear witness to how my own parents and grandparents etc suffered with SAD and that my own good fortune with LCHF/keto is a rebirth of sorts.
The vast majority of infants born within industrial society have physiologies influenced by the SAD sugar-burning maternal state (and its many ups & downs), which is a state of some degree of mammalian disorder, maternal neurological stress and systemic inflammation.
It’s a longstanding eastern & indigenous medicine principle but relatively new to western industrial medicine that the maternal brain state, emotional health, and extent of healthy social support deeply affects the child. The maternal blood chemistry is affected by maternal states, thoughts, and nourishment factors - which is what feeds and informs the developing child (prenatal DNA).
So, maternal health on all levels vastly influences massive foundations of metabolism and human development, often in ways that are subtle to the human eye when one looks at an infant. Obviously the sugar-burning maternal blood chemistry certainly has more ups n’ downs and a higher chance of malnourishment/stress in gestation. Metabolic/nervous stress certainly results in a different degree or physiological context of ketosis and hormonal balances in the neonatal period, which further varies according to additional birth trauma.
In industrial medical birth (vs. the midwifery model of care) otherwise-healthy mothers & babies are interfered with and separated in sooooo many ways, with some degree of stress/trauma/shock for both. Preconception levels of maternal stress, hormonal induction for childbirth (via synthetic oxytocin called pitocin), anesthesia, and/or surgical extraction all can greatly reduce the chance of successful latch-on and increase the chance of unpleasant/painful breastfeeding due to various disruptions. Thus, artificial milks are rendered necessary to save lives - yet with the worst kinds of sugars and hormonal impacts, ie, corn-syrup and soy based (estrogenic) artificial formulas. Other options are still very much outliers - things such as traditional breastmilk substitutes for babies (Whole Foods market sells a good freeze-dried goat milk infant formula powder, though it’s expensive it’s high quality stuff) and/or breastmilk banks or nursing cooperatives - whether due to social or economic access.
Neonatal ketosis in industrial society has variabilities that are obscured by both the culture and the medical practices, and it is often hijacked for one reason or another. Neonates have stone age nervous systems and bonding needs for brain development, yet industrial medicine itself is very new - and full of interventions. As the late pre & perinatal trauma specialist Wm Emerson PhD so well articulated, most people in industrial society have never seen an untraumatized infant. Likewise, mothers who’ve been supported for freestanding unmedicated physiological birth have a stone age brain chemistry (high oxytocin) that facilitates the prolactin/letdown reflex etc.
In addition, the primally bonded mother and baby are neurologically one unit until about month 9-10 when the baby can crawl (they share the same exact REM patterns when co-sleeping!). There are many mysteries to these things, indeed. It’s astonishing that the maternal brain, through sniffing the baby, knows what nutrients/ratios the baby will need for growth spurts, 36-48 hours advance, adjusting the hind milk’s fat ratio accordingly.
I’d wager that there are some vastly different infant metabolic profiles between cultural nourishment environments - with much of what is assumed normal in industrial cultures impacts on mothers and newborns not close to what is the primal human birthright (ie, not SAD). The upside though is that we can heal both trauma and metabolism - given the chance to change with good fats and low carbs along with the milk of human kindness, body-based/embodiment practices, and self-compassion. 
elastoplastic
("Don't call it calories, call it food")
#41
Thanks!! That is interesting
I enjoyed your articles.
Madeleine
#42
I love thinking about this! When my first child was born, it just seemed normal to have her on me most of the time, a natural extension of the pregnancy. My mother worried that she wouldn’t become independent, but she was happy and I was happy, and she nursed whenever she wanted. Around 4 or 5 months, she got REALLY wiggly when I was holding her and not moving - wanted to be moving around more on her own when she was awake -and by 8 months she just stayed on the floor near me and would come crawling back when she needed to touch base. She knew perfectly well what she needed and had a beautiful timeline for that separation.
amber
(L. Amber O'Hearn)
#43
Yes, exactly: fasting entails ketosis, but ketosis does not entail fasting in humans.
Some people do advocate for seasonal cycling of ketogenic vs glycolytic modes, because one is associated with building and the other with tearing down (autophagy) and it’s recognised that both are useful. I don’t necessarily think that’s harmful, but I don’t think it’s necessarily beneficial either.
One thing about eating ketogenically in a state of maintenance or growth rather than caloric deficit (as is the case with non-human animal models in reach in ketosis) is that you do get a fed state every time you eat. All of those anabolic processes come on. It’s just that now you can cycle between those on a daily basis instead of taking days to get back into ketosis the way you would have to for e.g. intermittent fasting with a high carb diet.
I’m skeptical that we can extrapolate IGF data from high carb contexts to the low carb one.