Body By Science, Fasting and BFR Training Results (with pics!)

daddyoh · 2019-12-19 12:01:48 UTC

If you are doing BBS and BFR training do you think your strength gains between BBS days are greater with BFR than without?

Thanks

Justin_Jordan · 2019-12-19 17:42:26 UTC

This is interesting. I’m adding this in, since I have some tendonitis issues (although a quality fish oil has helped markedly). But this is cheap and easy, so worth a shot in addition to the stuff I already do.

daddyoh · 2019-12-19 17:57:55 UTC

Thanks - I do 11g collagen and vit C after exercise. I’ll need to watch the video. I can use more improvements.

Don_Q · 2019-12-20 00:26:57 UTC

I went with the elastic bands because I suspect that they’re more idiot proof (that’s a legitimate concern in my case, just ask my wife ) . The limbs swell when doing BFR training, so the bands get “tighter” as you work out. The optimal occlusion is something like 80%, but there is not much difference between the results from 40% tight and 80% tight from a hypertrophy perspective from what I understand. I’d just as soon err on the side of caution. I’m no expert on the subject though.

This is the guidance on band selection that Dr. Mercola gives in his PDF overview of BFR training ( thanks @daddyoh for posting that resource!). I’ll link the full paper below again. It’s definitely worth reading.

If the KAATSU system is outside your budget, there are a wide range of inexpensive
BFR bands available. Just beware there are many inferior versions out there.
You need to be careful and make sure the material is elastic and can stretch.
Additionally, make sure that the bands are only 1 ½ inch wide for the arm bands and
2 inches for the leg bands.

Remember, while there are many 2-inch BFR bands for the arms for sale. These
bands are too wide and may cause ischemic injury and should be avoided. Also,
wider cuffs require significantly less pressure to achieve arterial occlusion pressure,
so it’s easy to end up with excessive arterial occlusion with wider cuffs which, again,
is not recommended.

The other danger of using bands that don’t stretch or are too wide is that they will
increase your blood pressure far higher. Under these circumstances BFR can be
dangerous and increase your blood pressure too high and may actually cause a
stroke.

No worry though, because if you use the elastic stretchy bands that are the
correct width (one inch for the arms, two inches for the legs), there is essentially
no risk of stroke. This is because correctly performed BFR will actually lower your
blood pressure. It is the finest exercise I know of to release NO and is far more
effective than the nitric oxide dump I used to do (but not anymore because BFR is
exponentially superior to the nitric oxide dump)

Don_Q · 2019-12-19 22:42:27 UTC

Dr. Mercola recommends elastic bands over rigid. He also recommends 1" wide for arms and 2" wide for legs. The orange/black pair from amazon look like they would fit the bill. I don’t love the metal buckle and velcro, because it looks like it could be uncomfortable on the skin (like the buckle might pinch). That said, I’m sure wearing a thin, tight fitting (lycra or similar) long sleeve shirt would solve the problem (if it even is one).

Bear in mind you don’t need to go to a gym for these workouts because you don’t need much weight, so it doesn’t matter how you look. I need to go to the gym for Body by Science workouts, because I need 600lbs on the leg press. With BFR training though, even just bodyweight “air squats” were more than I could handle. I do BFR at home so I’m not self conscious about struggling with a 5lb dumbbell…

If the two pairs you linked were the only two options, I’d get the orange/black pair just to experiment and see if I liked the BFR workouts. That’s my 2 cents.

Don_Q · 2019-12-19 23:23:58 UTC

I’ve never really noticed a difference, but I haven’t really been paying attention. Now that you mention it though, it seems plausible. One thing that I have noticed is that I do eat like a horse on BBS days. If your protein intake increases similarly, maybe all that extra protein could cause more color in the urine?

One thing that I learned from Drew Baye is that if you go “all out” on previous lift, it affect subsequent lifts even if it’s not the same muscle group. For example if you absolutely crush the leg press and leave nothing left in the tank, every subsequent lift is going to take a hit. That could explain it.

Another variable is time between exercises during a session. If last week you had to wait 3 minutes for someone to finish their set on the chest press machine, and this week you didn’t, that extra recovery time is going to affect your performance. I track my start time and end time for the total workout. I perform “better” on days where the total workout took 22 mins vs 17 mins, because it means I got more recovery time between exercises. To compare sessions, they really need to be the same duration with the same rest intervals. For me that means going to the gym late at night when it’s mostly empty.

One strategy that Drew Baye advocates to break stalls is to change exercise order. If you’re chest press is lagging, and you want to make progress on that lift, one option is to make that the first exercise you do. You’ll be able to hit it with 100% power, and therefore you’ll be able to inroad differently.

I use this as a test to see if I gave 100% intensity. After I’ve finished my set, I wait 30 seconds, then I try to do one more rep. If I can do one more rep in good form, I figure I haven’t done the set right. I’m not sure this is correct, or where I got it from though; it might not be the right way of looking at it. Generally though, I can’t do another rep. As much as anything else, I do it just as a mental technique to make sure I give it 100% the first time, because if I don’t it’s going to hurt a hell of a lot more to push out one more rep!

Interestingly, Drew Baye does talk about an inroading/stall-breaking technique called “rest pause”. In this technique, you intentionally do a 10 second pause between each individual rep. This recovery allows you to work with a much higher weight, and trigger neurological and muscular adaptations to higher weights. It’s used to break stalls. It’s not meant to be done often though.

daddyoh · 2019-12-20 00:20:09 UTC

Thanks @Don_Q

I haven’t been able to read the pdf yet. And I have not purchased bands yet. I have had high BP though mine is now well controlled (still on meds).

daddyoh · 2019-12-20 00:24:56 UTC

I eat three protein heavy meals on BBS days and my appetite is higher. Right now I’m not losing weight but I am losing fat because I can feel gaps in my frame where I had fat and I have muscle definition like I have never had.

Ao much good info in the post. Thanks. I will mixed up the order next week and see if that makes a difference.

Don_Q · 2019-12-20 01:13:14 UTC

Do you do the overhead press on lower body days? Is that to give a rest period between chest press and OH press?

Don_Q · 2019-12-20 02:26:07 UTC

Day 3 after Second BFR Session: I woke up a lot less sore. I’d say I’m at 70% today which is a great relief. I have noticed that I have a bit of twinge near the elbow that is clearly the result of the BFR workout. I can’t tell if it’s a muscle that was overstretched, but it’s a sharper pain than the soreness elsewhere in my triceps. It’s hard to fathom that there is any connective tissue damage with that little 5lb weight. I think it’s probably just micro-tears in the muscles not used to stretching in that particular way. I’m going to have to remember to be cognizant to keep that rep cadence at 1:1 and not move so fast. The slower the movement, the safer the exercise and all that jazz.

I’m dying to know the answer to this question myself. I can’t wait to get into the gym to do my BBS workout to see what happens to my TUT on all my lifts.

I can’t speak to strength yet, but the BFR training is doing crazy stuff to my biceps. Even 3 days later, I can see a spiderweb of blue veins on both of my biceps. I’m also eating like a horse. I have literally eaten a months worth of fish in the past week or so. I’ve completely given up on fasting for the past week; I’m not sure I could even if I wanted to. The crazy thing is that they actually look more defined. I know that sounds absolutely ridiculous, and it’s probably not even possible, but that’s what it looks like. They even feel different. When I flex them they are noticeably firmer than they have been in ages. I’m guessing it must just be temporary swelling or something while they’re recovering from the brutality that I put them through.

Getting more definition in my biceps is one of my goals for 2020. I did BBS for 4 months this past winter/spring, and though I got a lot stronger, and saw muscle definition elsewhere, my biceps never seemed to get defined the way they did when I was doing Stronglifts 5x5 eight years ago. With BBS, there is plenty of muscle in my biceps, but when I flex them the muscle seems to just stay pretty much flat instead of the “rounding” indicative of a well defined bicep. I actually took pictures a couple weeks ago so that I would have a baseline to compare against in a couple of months. I’m going to give it another day to let whatever is happening to my biceps (swelling or whatever it is) settle down before I take another reference pic. It’s not a huge difference, but it’s hard to believe much of anything could have happened this quickly, let alone what I’m seeing right now. I’m guessing it’s just temporary swelling. Is there such a thing as a 3 day pump???

@CaptainKirk you mentioned that were saw visible changes in your arms pretty quickly. How long was it before you noticed something? Do they get smaller if you lay off the BFR for a while?

Meerkatsandy · 2019-12-20 04:30:24 UTC

@Don_Q Nick, thank you very much for your reply

I can’t open the link

CaptainKirk · 2019-12-20 04:59:24 UTC

@Don_Q You owe me! LMAO!

No, the gains you are seeing are “in fact”, real gains… After the first workout I noticed the vascularity, the second workout I was feeling the difference, by 3-5 workouts, it was INSANE how fast. I actually lost PEC Fat and developed my old Pec Muscles (where you can PUSH against my man-cleavage, LOL), very well defined.

My forearms are like 20% larger near the elbows.

I am LONG overdue for a BBS so I will hit it in the Morning! I am curious about my numbers. Holidays have me out of kilter!

I think it is the DEEP Push of BLOOD into the tissue bringing more nutrients. Kinda like Hyperbaric Therapy with the bands on. I think it awakens something. It’s TOTALLY different than BBS, but in a “cooperatively similar” way… The growth and definition in all my muscles have stepped up.

It could simply be the excess HGH and the lack of damage, causing growth over healing! But that has been my experience.

Yes, SLOW DOWN. I don’t do weights all the time, I do Isometric. the concept is that it’s not the load it’s the muscular exhaustion and lack of refreshed blood oxygen type factor. Making your muscles adapt to a horrible stressor. And adapt they do.

Don’t worry, the muscles don’t continue on that trajectory! I think it is backfilling a bit.

This is so exciting… Man I wish I knew this stuff when I was like 12!

Meerkatsandy · 2019-12-20 07:16:57 UTC

I decided to get the bands, Santa’s gift from me to me My in-laws bought me Body by Science, I can’t wait for the book to arrive I think that the bands are a change in the right direction from my regular workouts - instead of buying heavier weights, I can use BFR with the weights I have now (1, 2 and 3 kg dumbells)?

I will re-read this thread again for workout tips once everything arrives and I will share my experiences, if you would be interested, of course

daddyoh · 2019-12-20 12:34:01 UTC

Stephen

Thanks so much. This video is so impactful. Dr Baar explains things so well I can now create my own rehab program for my tendon.

There is a lot to unpack. I’m now looking for similar videos on the nutrition side but this video includes these items about nutrition

lucine amino acid (eggs, meat,…)
collagen 15 g or more
and timing collagen ingestion (1 hr prior)

daddyoh · 2019-12-20 12:21:04 UTC

@Don_Q @CaptainKirk

I split LB/UB from habit mostly because that Is how I did volumetric training.

I may experiment with combining UB LB. My LB is 4 exercises because I can’t yet do leg presses or weighted squats because of my tibial tendon.

I do LB

hip adduction (topped out at 305lbs - machine limit)
outer thigh (topped out at 170 lbs but have some rep and TUT headroom still)
leg extensions now at 140 lb
seated leg curl now at 140 lbs
I do UB
pull down at 60 lbs (just started)
chest press at 135 lbs
vertical pull (seated pull) at 140 lbs
wrist curl at 40 lbs

I don’t have access to an overhead press upstairs so I’d have to break my exercise up going down the stairs. Should I add this even with the rest? I could do this as my final exercise.

I move quickly from machine to machine. I get to the gym at 4:40 am to beat the competition for the eqpt. I warm up 5 mins on a seated bike and then move through the exercises. Combining UB and LB increases machine waiting likelihood. But I can skip and come back if need be.

I usually then go back to the bike for 10 to 15 mins to keep heart rate up and then do 15 min hot tub and 10 min dry sauna.

I feed post-exercise. Collagen, Lucine heavy protein. (eggs, meat or fish of some kind) . On days I don’t do BBS I skip breakfast (IF 17/7). That may change for a few weeks as I am learning about collagen and the benefits of a 1 hr pre-exercise consumption for connective tissue repair.

daddyoh · 2019-12-20 12:25:35 UTC

@Don_Q @CaptainKirk

I’m not going to quote the above posts for quickness. I have to get to work so I can get home early. So much to unpack. BFR is so exciting. I am really interested in the vascularization aspects as I have had heart bypass and have higher BP (controlled nicely but with meds). My Dr has said that my heart is growing new arteries around some old blockage. Improvements in arterial and vascular system is beneficial.

I will order the bands soon and start slowly at home. I really appreciate all the specifics. I need to re-read all the posts from the last two days.

@Meerkatsandy adding you in because of your interest.

Have a great holiday season.

Don_Q · 2019-12-20 12:44:51 UTC

Sorry the link didn’t work. I’ll just quote @daddyoh post from above where he originally linked it. If this doesn’t work, just scroll up to post 127 in this thread.

Meerkatsandy · 2019-12-20 12:46:26 UTC

Thanks for thinking of me I found it on Mercola’s website and I received the pdf by email

Don_Q · 2019-12-20 13:30:59 UTC

Nice! There is probably nothing in the world more satisfying than maxing out a piece of gym equipment…

What I know about lifting weights would fit handily on cocktail napkin, and half of what I’ve read is probably wrong . That said, I have read articles about the importance of overhead press such that the author argued that if they could only pick one, they’d pick the overhead press over the bench press. I’m betting that when McGuff pared down 1,000 possible exercises to just 5, he included that one for a good reason! I’m sufficiently convinced of it’s importance that I’m considering moving OH press from a machine to barbell because it develops core strength and balance when done from a standing position. When done in a power-rack, it’s not a hard lift to do safely with barbells. That’s my 2 cents anyway, hopefully somebody more knowledgeable will weigh in.

I once read that if one person did only bicep curls, and another person did only squats, the person doing squats would still grow their biceps faster than the guy doing only bicep curls. The reason for this is that anabolism is systemic to a significant extent. When you lift heavy with your legs, you’re releasing a massive blast of anabolic hormones throughout the whole body. The bigger the muscle, the bigger the release. That’s why the first exercise I do is always leg press, and I do leg press with every workout. The leg extensions and leg curls that you’re able to do are hitting the biggest muscles in your body. You’ll move more weight with a single leg curl than a weeks worth of forearm work. Focus on the the big muscles and the little one’s will sort themselves out. In a nutshell, this is the underlying premise of the Body by Science workout. Like I said though, I’m hardly an expert!

It’s been a while since I read Body by Science, but my understanding was that a split routine was for when you hit the intermediate stage and 7 days was no longer sufficient recovery time (as evidenced by a plateau on multiple lifts). You might be short-changing yourself by hitting the CNS so hard two days in a row. That said, it sounds like you’re building in strength and building muscle, so you’re obviously doing something right! It’s a marathon and not sprint, so I’d say just keep doing whatever works best for you and your schedule.

daddyoh · 2019-12-20 13:27:50 UTC

We have one power-rack and it is usually busy even at 4:45 am - maybe I’ll take the hit and do the overhead eqpt downstairs even though there is a rest period.

I’m trying to now figure out how to add in my collagen+light ankle exercise, then protein feeding into the mix (new learnings just today). The ankle exercise is supposed to be absent other exercises on a 6 hr pre and post window. Said another way collagen+targeted light tendon work is best when limited to 5 to 10 mins with a 6-hour rest window. Otherwise, the connective tissue does not take up the collagen in a repair fashion. Gosh, the things that we know now are amazing and truly allow for bio-hacking.

I’m hopeful that my tendon will repair in 4 to 8 weeks enough that I can do BBS leg presses.

I’m sure I can work in BFR at home.

Thanks