Body By Science, Fasting and BFR Training Results (with pics!)

(Eric - The patient needs to be patient!) #81

@Don_Q

Do we know, does this exercise approach confer the same metabolic benefits as BBS and well as glycogen dumping?

(Windmill Tilter) #82

I am definitely sore this morning, but itā€™s a different kind of sore than Iā€™m used to. Itā€™s more acute and I donā€™t think itā€™ll last very long (in contrast to DOMS which peaks for me at 48hrs post workout). Itā€™s too early to tell for sure though. I guess Iā€™ll find out tomorrow morning! :yum:

I guess. I read pretty broadly and Iā€™d never even heard of it. I think part of the reason it hasnā€™t caught on in the gym is that the value proposition is unclear for your average gym bro. It doesnā€™t offer superior hypertrophy, it simply offers comparable hypertrophy with extremely light weights and minimal stress to central nervous system. Your average gym bro who squats 250lbs will not like the thought of struggling through with an empty bar. Additionally, your average gym bro never really taxes his CNS because heā€™s too busy doing isolation exercises, so thatā€™s not an issue either.

For those of us doing Body by Science or HIT weightlifting however, itā€™s a potential game changer!

This was a big concern of mine, but I can see that it was unfounded. From the research Iā€™ve done, it looks like whether the band is 40% tight or 80% tight (on a 1-10 scale where 10 is the point of arterial occlusion), it doesnā€™t really make a significant difference to the hypertrophy results.

I went in pretty cautious and not that tight, and a 5lb dumbell still kicked my ass :rofl::yum:ā€¦

(Windmill Tilter) #83

TLDR: I donā€™t know, but it should, and for all the same reasons that BBS does. :yum:

To the extent that the metabolic benefits of BBS are derived from building/maintaining skeletal muscle, I think the answer is yes. To the extent that the BBS confers cardiovascular benefits, I think BFR is even more effective. My understanding of McGuffā€™s argument is that all resistance training is good provided it does not incur injury because skeletal muscle is central to the cascade of metabolic benefits. He advocates BBS style workouts number one because theyā€™re slow and safe, and number 2 because they are time efficient (who doesnā€™t have 20 minutes a week???).

Unlike BBS, BFR training is high reps done quickly with as little rest as possible between sets. The goal is to concentrate metabolites like lactic acid in the muscle, which means youā€™re trying to do as much ā€œworkā€ in as little time as possible to outpace the bodies ability to circulate these metabolites out.

Think of doing 4 sets of 30 push-ups (I had to do mine from my knees like a noob!), then switching to 4 sets of 30 bodyweight squats, and moving to 4 sets of 30 bicep curls. Youā€™re panting like a dog the whole time, with no rest between exercise.

Additionally, BFR training actually builds muscle almost primarily through metabolic stress. There are 3 ways to build muscle:

  1. Mechanical Tension
  2. Muscle Damage
  3. Metabolic Stress

BBS focuses on the mechanical tension and muscle damage, while BFR training focuses primarily on metabolic stress. Put differently, the body builds muscle in the effected area primarily in reaction to being bombarded by things like lactic acid, the mechanical work is simply done simply for the purpose of generating the metabolites! The mechanical tension is minimal and the muscle damage is negligible.

My instinct is that metabolic stress is going to be pretty darn good at creating metabolic benefits. That said, I donā€™t really know. Most of the research focuses on hypertrophy and strength regain in a clinical or rehabilitation setting.

(Windmill Tilter) #84

Iā€™d love to hear more about your weekly workout schedule. What are your exercises on BBS day? Do you do the big 5 alone or do you do additional exercises. What is your cadence and what TUT range do you target (e.g. 60sec lower range to 90 sec means more weight)? What is your typical workout on BFR days (exercises, sets, reps). What is your weekly diet and eating schedule like these days in conjunction with your workouts (fasting schedule,plain keto or carnivore?)

A couple of things Iā€™ll note while Iā€™m think about it is that Iā€™m much less hungry today than I am the day after a BBS workout. I had to make myself eat this morning. The day after a BBS workout, itā€™s not really safe to stand between me and a steak; Iā€™ve come close to growling at my dog for looking at my plate on particularly ravenous days. That simply isnā€™t true today after my first BFR session. Thatā€™s interesting to me!

(Windmill Tilter) #85

@Karim_Wassef, @CaptainKirk, @primal.peanut, @Ilana_Rose

Here is the eating schedule I think Iā€™ve settled on. My thought is that now that Iā€™ve lost about half the weight that I started with, Iā€™m going to try a slower weight loss strategy than the 3 Fast: 2 Feast schedule that I dropped the first 45lbs with. Iā€™m looking for a balance of hypertrophy and fat loss AKA body recomposition. Itā€™s a mythical beast in fitness lore, but I think the schedule below might optimize for it.

From what I gather, the majority of muscle growth occurs within the first 48hrs of lifting, so Iā€™m looking at always having 48 feasting hours following each weight lifting session. There will 72hrs between each lifting session, alternating between BFR and BBS. The BBS will deliver promote hypertrophy via mechanical tension and muscle damage at the expense of central nervous system stress, and the BFR training will promote hypertrophy via metabolic stress with little CNS cost.

Since hypertrophy is optimized for most people by lifting between 4:30pm - 10:30pm due to circadian rhythms, Iā€™ll be eating most of my calories in the afternoon, and most of my protein at night. The schedule below gives me about 10 fasting days a month, which should yield a nice slow drop of 5lbs of fat per month. Thatā€™s the theory anyway. Iā€™d love to hear your thoughts!

(Heather Meyer) #86

OMGā€‹:hushed::hushed::hushed: Squats!!! I woud die after just one!
But its soo trueā€¦ many people are doing squats wrong. I see people doing that bouncy bouncy thing with their head all the time.

I actually use an exercise ball behind my back against a wall so when i squat down, im forced to keep my back straight in order to hold the ball against the wallā€¦Iā€™m honestly ready to die after just 10

(Kirk Wolak) #87

OMG Manā€¦ You eat so often! How do you lose weight? (LOL).

I am still mostly MWF eating days! (Holidays, Vacations, Testing aside).

So, I normally do a SS (your BBS, I call Slow Slow, it reminds me to go slow).
I track with an app, the interval TUT, and my weights and I strive for 6 seconds out, 6 seconds return, sometimes longer. I donā€™t GRIND the inroading, I do the EGO Flip.
If my body and brain feel like they are checking out early, then I inroad (Hold until exhaustion). Pretty Strict 60ā€¦90 seconds range, when I go over 90, I go as long as possible. I will REDUCE my ROM if I can still move the weight in a small range, and I will count those reps or that time and log it. (190 lbs 72s / 98s or / 8reps) Depending
on what I record. That says I failed fat 72s and Held it for 98s. Or after 72s I was able to get 8 mini reps out.

I do my SS workout USUALLY on Monday, fasted (but a coffee + collagen). I eat later.
I work out earlier in the day. Whole Body.

Then my Friday workout is BFR. After my meal!
I will sometimes do an EXTRA SUNDAY BFR (Specifically to produce more HGH overnight, and have available early monday).

I would NOT cut down on fasting at 1/2 point. I would add fasting. I have ZERO excess skin! Donā€™t worry about the body gaining muscle and losing weight. Do worry about eating enough protein, as well listening to your body.

The longer you fast, the STRONGER your fast. The deeper you go into autophagy.
The better my ketone numbers, the better I feel. Today is one of those days (fasted), that I think I could fast forever! But you do you!

Let me know how it goes.

(Kirk Wolak) #88

BBS / SS makes me hungry as well. I tried doing them on Fasting days, or in the middle of a 5 day fast. After breaking my fasts because of ā€œNutrient Seekingā€ (The feeling you have that RAW BACON or RAW Dog Food is fine, just give it to me!). I believe it is the absolute need for the protein.

BFR is easy. Do it fasted all the time!

(Kirk Wolak) #89

Actually, based on my research, BFR confers DIFFERENT but Similar benefits.
First, there is far less CNS damage, and almost ZERO actual recovery needed.
No DOMS (or at least very very minimal). I am not sure if Glycogen Depletion is the same, it could be, because we activate all of the muscle fibers! It could be higher, because we spend MORE TIME movingā€¦

The key thing is that this causes massive amounts of ā€œSignallingā€ via lactic acid and other signalling molecules building up in your tied off muscle. Then when you release it, it gives your body all of that energy (yes, lactic acid is a form of energy). But it also signals your body that a MASSIVE stress occurred without the stress! Your HGH goes up, and some of the compensation that kicks in from the signalling is there without the muscle tears normally experienced.

If my results keep up like this, AND I had to choose only ONE, I would choose BFR over BBS. For 3 Reasons:

  1. No requirement (for me), to eat afterwards
  2. It takes far far less out of me, and no DOMS
  3. I could do it more times/week! (Sick to think thatā€™s a bonus, LMAO)
(Windmill Tilter) #90

Lol. Nope. I got the DOMS. Itā€™s 36hrs since my workout, and the soreness is deepening significantly. Iā€™m guessing itā€™s because itā€™s my first time doing it, and I donā€™t typically do squats (machine leg press).

Whatā€™s really fascinating about it is that it absolutely crushed my biceps. They havenā€™t been hit that hard in ages; itā€™s hard to believe itā€™s from 5lb dumbells. Whatā€™s even more interesting is what isnā€™t sore. My triceps are totally fine, which tells me that push-ups are not nearly enough for them. I guess Iā€™ll need to do some dumbell triceps extensions or something. My glutes are also fine, which is interesting. Generally my soreness is higher in the glutes than the quads but itā€™s the opposite this time. Obviously the cuff is cinched off below the glutes, so no metabolites were concentrated there as a consequence of BFR so they didnā€™t get sore. The cuffs clearly worked! That does mean that I canā€™t abandon my full body BBS though since it doesnā€™t seem to hit trunk muscles as hard.

(Windmill Tilter) #91

I donā€™t have anything against extended fasting thatā€™s for sure. From January through April this year I maintained a pretty strict 3 Fast: 2 Feast eating pattern. The weight definitely drops quick that way. I did BBS the whole time, so I didnā€™t lose muscle, and I think I gained a little bit. Iā€™ve only got 50lbs to go though, so Iā€™m not in a huge rush, and I think ten 48hr fasts per month should be sufficient to deal with loose skin.

What Iā€™m proposing is really as much a science experiment as anything else. Body recomp (lose fat while gaining muscle) is basically the holy grail of weight loss, and even the experts debate to what extent itā€™s possible. Based on what Iā€™ve read, the consensus is that itā€™s possible, but the muscle gain will be minimal.

Iā€™ve never seen a 2 Feast:1 Fast eating pattern done on an extended basis with a BBS/BFR workout done every 3 days before though. I think 48hrs of feeding and 2 nights sleep will capture 75% of the hypertrophy potential. I think the 10 days fasting each month will yield a solid 5lbs of fat loss and deal with loose skin. Iā€™m super curious see whatā€™s possible in terms of building muscle mass while dropping 50lbs, and my instinct is that a 2:1 eating pattern might be the sweet spot. I think that a lot of hypertrophy potential is lost by not eating the day after a resistance training workout.

That said, Iā€™m considering front-loading the weight loss by doing a 2:2 eating pattern for the first few months like this:

(Windmill Tilter) #92

@CaptainKirk

Here is why I think 2 consecutive eating days after weightlifting has merit, though Iā€™ll be the first to admit that it barely rises to the level of bro science :yum: . Protein synthesis peaks at ~24hrs after lifting, and is still highly elevated 48hrs after lifting. The key takeaway from the diagram below is the area under the curve. Weā€™re looking at myofibrillar protein and sarcoplasmic protein (click the pic and itā€™ll enlarge for clarity).

Letā€™s say that muscle synthesis is happening at a constant rate of ā€œ10ā€ during the fed state after lifting, and drops to 0 in the fasted state for the sake of simplicity. If the fed state is 24hrs in duration that gets you 240 ā€œmuscle building unitsā€, but if the fed state persists for 48hrs, you get 480 ā€œmuscle building unitsā€. By dropping from an anabolic state to a catabolic state 24hrs earlier, youā€™ve sacrificed nearly half of potential hypertrophy. I can appreciate that the rate isnā€™t constant, but the key point is that you can get 80% of the hypertrophy potential by remaining anabolic for 48hrs. You can definitely build muscle in 24hrs of eating, but youā€™re leaving a lot on the table is the overarching point. The diminishing marginal returns after 48hrs make that the sweet spot.

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The study is linked above. There are not many of itā€™s kind, so though imperfect, itā€™s the most compelling evidence I can find that studies hypertrophy as a function of time. Incidentally, it fits very nicely with the research Iā€™ve read around hypertrophy as a function of training frequency. The best metaanalysis of that topic was done by Schoenfield in 2017 or 2018, but I canā€™t find it for the life of me. Itā€™s around here somewhereā€¦ :yum:

(Kirk Wolak) #93

Yeah, I like the 2:2 splitā€¦ There is something about 48+ hrsā€¦

Honestly, KetoGains has tons of results of people losing weight while gaining muscle.

I donā€™t think of it as the Holy Grail anymore. I think of it as 2 different modes of operating your body on. For the same reason that doing Aerobics BEFORE Weight Lifting is a bad idea (It puts your body into ā€œleaningā€ mode, not building mode).

And why exercising FASTED and then eating (Dr. Fung just tweeted that out), is better for your metabolism! (Working out hard, and fasting, lowers it. If you donā€™t refeed)

I believe that trying to gain muscle is INFLAMMATORY. And, for me, being inflamed works against losing weight! Think about that situation. The goals are absolutely backwards to your body. In one mode, you are creating more muscle, in another mode, you are trying to get the body to break things down.

I lost 90% of my weight without really doing any exercise, but I did do 1 LIMITED slow-slow routine a week (I had 3 hernias, so 2-3 exercises were off limits), skipping lots of weeks. I was shocked that when I had to take 3 months off, I lost very little strength!

I am on the other side of getting here. I am above my target after the holidays, and just getting back to my normal swing. But I am finding it pretty easy to put on muscle/size with these 2 routines. I am talking weeks, not months. Again, you do you! But in 3-6 months, I think I will be in great physical shape.

I would be curious to have you try a BFR the DAY BEFORE your BBS workout!

Tell me how you perform. If it doesnā€™t impact it, I would consider stacking them like that, because your HGH will already be higher!

(Kirk Wolak) #94

Nick,
I canā€™t argue with the logic as it is.
I can say that eating AFTER Lifting is kinda the gold standard.
The question of waiting a bit. I think we are TUNED to be good at ingesting our prey after exertion, so it makes sense to me.

Now, that said, your body will utilize whatever you can feed it. And frankly, if you are eating a protein heavy (carnivore) or clean ketoā€¦ Itā€™s not a big deal, and I donā€™t disagree with your take on it.

Your body will repair until the repairs are done, or the material to repair is not there (fasted?), or until you get the wrong hormone mix. Even Dr. McGuff says he has clients who do 1xWeek SPLIT into 1/2 or even 1/3 of the body, because their recovery time is that long! (Full Body work out over 2-3 weeks!)

The ONE thing I truly know is that EVERY BODY is different. My friend drinks heavily salted water while fasting, and her ketones go through the roof. It does nothing for me.

Keep me posted on the progressā€¦ Iā€™m just happy the BFR Routines are becoming popular!

#95

Yes, nature has powerful anti-inflammatories! Ginger is a cousin of Turmeric, theyā€™re both rhizomes in the Zingiberaceae family - and Ginger is amazing for relieving pain, a 1.1 g dose (two capsules) acts like a prescription ibuprofin in how it supresses the enzyme pathways for COX I and COX II ! Because DOMS is NOT FUN - and one can have muscle inflammation processes without severe debiiltating pain, etc.

Iā€™m also a fan of amino acids like leucine, and glycine, found in my grassfed, dehydrated whole whey concentrate, for protein synthesis and muscle development. With whatever HIT slow lifting one uses, the dietary nutrients support is critical for muscle development, as is the timing of eating. I learned recently that Thomas DeLauer advocates for training in a fasted state as a force multiplier for results despite less or weaker effort, which is fascinating. Fred Hahn also updated his guidelines on when to eat before/after training, based on current science. Iā€™ve done fasted training, and feel much weaker during and when done, but with consistent results and a happier gut.

I take Ginger capsules about an hour before lifting sessions to prevent exertion headaches (which I got when returning to training after taking a break of several months with tons of chair-sitting job hours) - and it also pre-empts DOMS. It can also be taken at the onset of DOMS, with kinder body impacts than aspirin or ibuprofin etc. Being that Ginger also lowers insulin and clears fibrin, itā€™s a great allly for general health - and can be taken along with Turmeric (or, if one is traditional Indian, both are eaten from ground powders and/or fresh grated most every day).

(Kirk Wolak) #96

Hereā€™s another Bart Kay Video.
Heā€™s done a lot of research and has pretty deep knowledgeā€¦

He is talking about this topic, and why fasting and body building donā€™t go hand in handā€¦

(Windmill Tilter) #97

I totally agree. I started eating turmeric and pepper a few years ago to deal with the gout symptoms I was experiencing as a carb burner. It amazed me how much it helped. Once I started keto, my gout symptoms largely disappeared so I stopped taking it. The more Iā€™ve read though, the more I realized that inflammation is something I want to minimize for a whole host of reasons.

My current plan is to add 1000mg curcumin, 1 tsp finely ground pepper, 1/4 tsp ground ginger, and 1 tsp turmeric to the 1lb of ground beef that I eat each day. My understanding is that the best delivery mechanism for curcumin is in fatty food, because itā€™s fat soluble. The ground pepper is 3% piperine by weight, and the piperine makes the curcumin orders of magnitude more bio-available. Iā€™d love to hear your thoughts on my ā€œrecipeā€ and whether there is anything I should add to it. I donā€™t care how it tastes. Food isnā€™t really a source of entertainment for me anymore.

Incidentally, I found a good source for 95% curcumin extract in powdered form. I went on amazon looking for pills and I was amazed that 99% of them were basically just 2000mg of turmeric and 150mg of actual curcumin. Thatā€™s a tiny fraction of the therapeutic dose most of the research has evaluated. Turmeric is just 3% curcumin by weight, so your garden variety ā€œcurcuminā€ supplement is delivering around 210mg of actual curcumin. Youā€™d need to take 10 of the damn things and theyā€™re ridiculously expensive. Dried turmeric is a basic spice and costs about $5 a lb!

Here is the 95% curcuminoid turmeric extract that I found on Amazon. I checked around and the manufacturer has a great reputation. It beats the hell out of buying $250 worth of pills stuffed with fillers!

(Windmill Tilter) #98

Well, he doesnā€™t necessarily say that fasting and bodybuilding donā€™t go hand in hand, he just says that one canā€™t expect to build muscle while fasting, because the amino acid pool necessary for amino acid pool is too depleted to accomplish effective protein synthesis. No argument here!

He also says that the muscle damage will be repaired when the fasting stops and the feasting begins, as you pointed out earlier. The million dollar question is whether or not it will repair it to the same extent. Put differently, we know that one of the 3 means of promoting muscle growth is muscle damage, and that in normal circumstances when the muscle is repaired the body adds a little bit extra to prevent future damage. Thatā€™s hypertrophy. Does that work in the same way under conditions of scarcity? I suspect that it does not.

The human body is an amazingly conservative system. I suspect that if the muscle damage is incurred during a fast, and refeed takes place several days later, when muscle damage is repaired the body is a bit less liberal in adding extra muscle tissue. I have no evidence of that but it makes intuitive sense.

Totally agree. Historically, Iā€™ve fasted for 3 days, done my BBS workout in the fasted state, and then immediately break the fast. Then I eat to satiety regardless of what that means in terms of kcals. If Iā€™m hungry, I eat. I trust my satiety signals implicitly now. Yesterday I ate 1.3lbs of smoked herring, 14.5oz of salmon, and a nearly 1lb of hamburger. That was easily 3000kcals. Itā€™s also a weeks worth of fish for me normally! I donā€™t know why I wanted it, but I had an inexplicable craving for it, so down the hatch it wentā€¦:yum:

(Windmill Tilter) #99

True, but it does both poorly from what I can gather, and for the reason you state beautifully belowā€¦

Yup. It makes no sense to me to try to burn fat and lose weight in the same day. Totally different systems. Mixing catabolism with anabolism at the same time makes no sense. You can probably make progress, but youā€™ll do a lousy job of burning fat and a lousy job of building muscle. Progress will be measured in years rather than months. Why would anybody do that? If you step on the gas pedal and the brake pedal at the same time, you canā€™t expect much to happen. We should all know by now that hormones run the show, and circadian rhythms are the executive producer.

Thatā€™s why I think that alternating day fasting or variations thereof make a lot of sense. The basic formula for me is:

  • Fast
  • Resistance Training
  • Feast during optimal protein synthesis window
  • Feast at night to maximize fat creation and protein synthesis during hormonally optimum window
  • Repeat

Most of this nutrition and chemistry stuff goes over my head, but the approach above is what makes intuitive sense to me. Lord knows Iā€™ve been wrong about a gazillion things so far, so Iā€™m always happy to switch mid-stream when there is new information. :smile:

(Kirk Wolak) #100

Rock On.
Great conversationā€¦

And itā€™s worth trying. Heck, we were once told that low-carb doesnā€™t work, and it destroys your kidneys. Also still being told you have to exercise to lose weight, and MORE exercise is better. (More Targeted Exercise is better).

Learning to listen to your body is the AMAZING thing. Nobody criticized me eating an entire box of little debbiesā€¦ But tell them I eat only meatā€¦ ā€œWonā€™t that kill you!ā€. (Um, the little debbies were killing meā€¦ Look at me now!)