Body By Science, Fasting and BFR Training Results (with pics!)

daddyoh · 2020-01-01 15:55:24 UTC

Where did you get these and what did they costs? How do you know what pressure to use? Please keep us informed. Very cool.

Don_Q · 2020-01-01 18:19:34 UTC

I’ll preface this by reiterating that these things are totally and completely unnecessary. A $30 set of bands will absolutely get the job done. I just love gadgets and enjoying experimenting.

I bought it from Edge Mobility Systems. They sell products and conduct training seminars for physiotherapists. The set with all 4 cuffs is usually $269 but Santa got it on sale for $225. They’re a great deal compared to anything else in the market, and given it’s target consumer (physiotherapists in a clinical setting), they can’t afford to sell a junk. Here is a link:

Don_Q · 2020-01-01 19:03:54 UTC

TLDR: Don’t worry about it, because it’s completely unnecessary to optimize pressure, and no sane rational person would bother with it outside of a clinical setting. Get a $30 set of elastic style bands, get them snug enough to feel tight but not uncomfortable. Time how long it takes for the color to return to the meaty part of the thumb when depressed (keep it around 2 seconds). Use a weight that’s 30 % of your one rep max. Enjoy your 15 minute workout and all the new muscles that are growing by the day.

Long Answer:

This is it’s own can of worms. The manual says to use 150-200 mmHg for the arms and 120-150Hg for the legs. I expect this is around 40% of the “average” occlusion pressure from the literature, where it was found to be the minimum effective dose. In other words, it’s a safe range that’s impossible to screw up.

The actual correct pressure to use will vary for each individual, and can even vary for the same person on different days. In a clinical setting, the procedure is to measure the 100% arterial occlusion point via ultrasound for each individual limb, and then adjust the pressure downwards to a % of total occlusion that is necessary for the clinical objective.

Edge Mobility Systems actually conducts training seminars throughout the world on the proper procedures in a clinical setting, and offer certification for BFR therapy. They have a session coming up in Boston, but its $$$.

They also sell a handheld ultrasound and a training video on how to optimize arterial occlusion for clinical objectives. It’s really just a re-purposed handheld fetal ultrasound device so it’s right off the shelf and therefore inexpensive. Using an ultrasound allows you to hear the exact instant of arterial occlusion, and gives you a precise reading. I’m very tempted to get one even though I know it’s completely unnecessary.

Why would anyone bother? Well, if you’re a physiotherapist, it’s a liability thing. If a patient sues you because they felt their hand was slightly numb for a few minutes, and that they were so traumatized by the event that they need $500,000 in restitution $1.5 million in punitive damages, it’s a pretty good idea to be certified and to have used the most rigorous, precise, and up to date methodology available.

The other reason is that there appears to be a trade-off between occlusion pressure and the necessary weight used. Generally speaking, the higher the occlusion pressure, the lower % of 1 Rep Max the weight can be to get the same hypertrophy result. To get the same benefit with 20% 1RM it appears you need to use 80% occlusion; alternatively you can use 40% occlusion in conjunction with 40% of 1 RM. Here is the research:

Personally, I want to use the lightest weight possible to minimize CNS impact and muscle damage, so I want to use the highest occlusion possible. That means flying a bit close to the sun. Any rational person would simply use 30% of 1 rep max, get a $30 band reasonable tight and call it a day. I’m not particularly rational sane or rational unfortunately…

RightNOW · 2020-01-01 18:35:39 UTC

Relevant trivia:
The wider the band, the less pressure you need to use.
The skinnier the band, the more surface tissue damage possible from the pressure.

(I assume that’s why blood pressure cuffs are about 8" wide. Some of the bands in research are these size but it might be partly because some of the studies actually just used blood pressure cuffs.)

Don_Q · 2020-01-01 19:08:19 UTC

Do any of you guys do extra isolation exercises on top of the “big 5”? I’d be really curious to know what other folks are doing in addition to the core routine.

Here is something that I’ve been doing as a lat isolation exercise. I feel like they get hit reasonably well with the lat pulldown, but the limiting factor is usually my biceps or upper back. My lats still have plenty of gas in the tank, because it’s a huge muscle. I do my “Big 5” lat pulldown first as a preexhaust for the lats, and then I do this exercise to isolate the lats as much as possible and truly bring them to failure.

The results were pretty amazing even over just a few months. My lats went from a “flabby muscle” that I could easily push my finger into even when flexed to a solid slab of muscle you could bounce a quarter off when flexed. That might just be a genetic thing for me, but if anyone’s lat pulldown is stalling, it might be worth a shot.

I do the exercise with both arms at once because 60 seconds is all the extra time I really want to devote to it. You lose a bit of the rotation component, but it still isolates the and hits the lats really well. If you’re not familiar with this guys channel, it’s a great one. Definitely the best resource for exercise “form” that I’ve found on the internet.

Don_Q · 2020-01-01 19:02:16 UTC

True story! That’s why Dr. Mercola recommends the 1" bands for the arms and 2" bands for the legs in his BFR guide. It was posted by @daddyoh up above in post 127 of this thread. It’s a great little ebook that covers a lot of ground.

Don_Q · 2020-01-01 18:56:39 UTC

I think I’ll pass on that one. It’s 10,000% more expensive than BFR, has 1/100th the research backing it, and the efficacy is still as yet undetermined. Hard pass.

Also, the shocking. I don’t like the shocking…

daddyoh · 2020-01-02 12:33:09 UTC

Nick

Thanks for the info. Next BFR for arms will be the same band tension and 8 lb dumbbells. I don’t have any 5 lbs yet. If I get real tired or sore I will then dial it back for the next one. I might go to the gym for a better selection of dumbbells.

I see zero people doing BFR at the gym and am a little concerned I will be called out. Will see.

I do BBS training split LB/UB Thursday/Friday. If I do BFR for arms 1/week when should I do this? I’m thinking maybe Wednesday so I have close to max recovery for UB (5 days).

Don_Q · 2020-01-02 15:55:36 UTC

I don’t have a clue, but I’ve got an opinion…

If it were me, I’d want a minimum of 48hrs between my BFR and BBS workouts. You’ll get something like 40% of possible muscle protein synthesis in the first 24hrs after a workout, an additional 30% in the next 48 hrs, and the remainder over the next few days. If you do another workout 24 hrs after your BFR training, you’re leaving 60% of potential muscle protein synthesis on the table. I’d do the BFR workout on Tues. That way you get 2 nights of rest before hitting your arms again.

My inclination would be to try it on Tues and see how it affects your TUT during your BBS workout. If you’re making progress, keep doing Tues. If you start to regress because you haven’t fully recovered from BFR, move the BFR workout to Mon. I’m a long way from being an expert on any of this stuff though. That’s my 2 cents.

Another option is to combine the UB/LB into 1 workout. If you’re pressed for time, drop everything but the big 5 on BBS day, and work the accessory lifts into your BFR session with resistance bands (they’re cheap). This will give an extra full recovery day after BBS, and probably save time overall. I spend more time dressing/driving/locker-room each gym session than I do in the weight room.

Don_Q · 2020-01-02 16:39:49 UTC

BFR Session 3

It was my first workout with the pneumatic bands. It was pretty similar to using the elastic bands as you might imagine. One thing that I did notice is that the legs got way better compression for this workout. I really struggled to get out the last few reps of the squat. I guess I underestimated how tight I could go with the leg elastic bands. I added in calf raises on this workout just for the heck of it. Couldn’t hurt.

I worked out 40hrs fasted, and it was amazing how fast the hunger came roaring back after the workout. I was ravenous 15 minutes later whereas usually it takes about an hour; that probably doesn’t mean anything but it’s interesting. One lb of hamburger seemed to settle things down for a bit. Amazingly, it’s barely an hour later and I’m already starting to feel a bit peckish again. BFR is hungry work!

Arm Pressure: 250mmHg
Leg Pressure: 150mmHg

Squat: bodyweight: 30,15,15,15
Bicep: 8lbs: 30,15,11,8
Pushup: knee pushups, 15, 6, 5, 3
Tricep: 15, 10, 4
Calf Raises: bodyweight, 30,30,30,30

daddyoh · 2020-01-02 16:37:12 UTC

Thanks - I try Tuesday and then consider combining into one day. I’m still challenged lower body because of my ankle so I can’t do weighted squats or less presses yet. But soon. Maybe 4 to 6 weeks.

Lots to consider.

Don_Q · 2020-01-02 16:54:06 UTC

I don’t think you’re missing much, leg presses are my least favorite thing to do.

Given that you’re doing both leg extensions and leg curls, I’d say you’re hitting the big muscles and getting the job done. People build a heck of lot of strength and muscle without ever doing a squat or leg press machine!

daddyoh · 2020-01-02 17:32:09 UTC

Funny thing is that leg presses is my favorite. I was just researching the big 5. Maybe I make it a big 6 leg curls and extensions. I’ll do my regular upper body tomorrow and then go to the big 6. My form will be filled out and I’ll need to print a new one.

daddyoh · 2020-01-03 12:14:15 UTC

@Don_Q
Nick

Thanks for the suggestion to combine my UB and LB for BBS. I’m going to do this next Thursday or Friday. I’m thinking I’ll do the UB and then my 2 LB exercises. My thinking is that my UB is weaker and I need all the strength I can gain there first.

Your post about hunger after BFR training has me worried about too much eating. I eat 3 meals a day when I do BBS and some days post extended fasting. But I’m only doing BFR for the arms so maybe I can just not eat and see how that goes. When I do eat most mornings I consume some Vit C first then 10 mins later a broth with 15 g collagen powder then whatever fatty protein I choose.

Today I did Wild Planet sardines in water and 6 oz of freshly cooked ground chuck and some pork rinds plus a small amount of parmesan cheese.

Don_Q · 2020-01-03 15:50:28 UTC

TLDR: My two cents is that you should always eat to satiety regardless of how many calories that might mean. It doesn’t matter if that means 2000kcal or 4000kcal. If exercising scrambles your satiety signals to such an extent that you can no longer lose fat, you need to either exercise less, or figure out a way to make the scale move in the right direction while eating to satiety. For me, the answer is to add in extended fasting. That’s what works for me, but everybody is different. I think the only universal rule is eat to satiety.

Long Version:

I think the cornerstone of keto or any diet is eating to satiety. If you fail to do this, you’re setting yourself in opposition to a 1 billion year old system evolved for the sole purpose of regulating energy balance and fat reserves. It controls hormones, metabolism, endocrine systems. We have finite and fickle human will.

Put differently, it controls the gas pedal, brakes, and steering wheel, and our consciousness is just google maps pleading quietly from the dashboard “turn left”. Not a smart fight to pick. If we antagonize the beast at the wheel, and it decides we’re no longer trustworthy, it will do exactly what it was designed to do: take the wheel and preserve or increase fat stores at any cost. The prudent thing to do is to eat to satiety, and keep the beast happy. We do this by listening to what it’s saying. It’s an unfathomably complex system, but it can only communicate to us in a fairly simple language: hungry/not hungry. When it speaks, it’s a pretty good idea to listen.

This is where exercise becomes problematic. At least once a day someone posts in the “Not Losing Weight” section something basically like this: “I’m doing everything right and I’m still not losing! I go to the gym 6 days a week and I run 3 miles per day. I’m keeping my carbs under 20 and eating to satiety but I’m still not losing. Help!”. I think the impact on satiety signals varies on an individual basis, but I think a great many people get their satiety signals scrambled by exercise.

As I see it, the only real trick to losing fat is to figure out how to eat to satiety, while still losing fat. This is where keto in conjunction with fasting is nearly magical. The only way to really screw it up is exercise. My solution is to exercise as little as possible, and when I do, I feast until I’m no longer hungry. After I’ve done something metabolically stressful like extended fasting or exercise, I think it’s imperative to “feed the beast” so much that it goes back to sleep. It doesn’t matter how many calories that takes. If it wakes up, it’s game over.

Here is my chart from last winter/spring. The feasts were insane. Click on the image below and it will double in size for legibility. Some of those feast days were well over 5000kcal. Some were over 6000kcal. That’s not a typo. I bought an indirect calorimeter to track to RMR to make sure my metabolism wasn’t dropping, which is the best possible measurement as to whether the beast is asleep. In about 4 months, I dropped about 45lbs, gained a bit of muscle. That’s what worked for me; your mileage may vary!

daddyoh · 2020-01-03 18:27:50 UTC

Nick,

Sorry I did not make myself clear.

I eat to satiety and I fast and feast. When I first started keto I did not have a satiety signal and now I do most of the time, especially if I keep carbs very low (<15g/day).

I’m not worried about losing weight or gaining weight right now. I’m not even weighing myself except like 1/month.

I do want to be able to do as many IF days as possible and also extended fasts of 36 to 72 hrs a few times a month.

Body composition is what I am working on now with BBS and hopefully BFR. With BBS my body composition changes have been dramatically positive as I have described some of that in other posts. As long as I continue to lose fat and gain strength and agility I’m good. Someday I want to get 10 to 20 lbs lighter but reversing my insulin resistance and reducing the # of BP meds I take is the most important other health goals now.

So fasting both IF and EF help me with IR and BP reductions.

All of this comes down to timing of BFR and BBS so that I’m getting a few days in each week for IF and every other week maybe a 1.5 to 3 day fast.

I fast typically Sunday to up to Wednesday evening for family reasons. If I do BFR on Wednesday for a while maybe I just limit my fasts to 2 days. I can always skip BFR a week every now and then for a longer fast.

I don’t want to skip BBS workouts if I can avoid skipping. They are dramatic for me and I love them (when the results show up a few days post BFR). that is why I’m doing them on Thursday and Friday.

On a totally different front my PT said I can start doing leg presses with light wt and using it volumetrically. She said just add weight each week and monitor how my ankle feels.

Eventually I be able to do leg presses in the BBS style.

eric

CFLBob · 2020-01-03 20:51:01 UTC

May I ask a stupid question? I’ve been trying to follow what you guys are talking about for days - weeks.

Is BFR for hypertrophy or does it add strength better than BBS by itself? I think I’ve read those aren’t necessarily the same don’t necessarily always come together. Is that right?

I’ll leave it there. I have the book and I’m trying to do BBS by myself, no coaches, and just trying to get a workout with the tools at hand. Years ago, we bought a Bowflex. I have that and a couple of dumbbells with two bars, four each of 5lb and 3lb plates.

Edit to correct the 3 lb plates - I called them 2.5. As if it matters.

Don_Q · 2020-01-03 20:01:29 UTC

TLDR: It builds strength and hypertrophy ~50% faster than BBS alone. It’s able to do so because it’s the mirror image of BBS. It does not impact central nervous system recovery or cause muscle damage; it causes hypertrophy purely through metabolic stress.

Unnecessarily Long Explanation with Pictures:

Like McGuff says in the book, it’s damn hard to do more than one BBS workout in the same week. I’ve tried and the nearest I could have them together and still make progress is 6 days. The reason for this is that it massively overloads your central nervous system. Your muscles are repaired long before your CNS recovers. What this means is that you’re leaving a great deal of potential hypertrophy on the table.

There are 3 things you can do to build muscle:

Mechanical Tension
Muscle Damage
Metabolic Stress

BBS does a great job of all 3 because it uses extremely heavy weights (tension), creates significant muscle damage, and creates metabolic stress through constant loading to failure. The problem is that the CNS recovery time is too long. The differential between the CNS recovery and muscle recovery is an arbitrage opportunity. To take advantage of it, it’s necessary to do something that causes very minimal CNS impact. Pretty much anything you do that causes muscle damage also causes CNS stress, so 99% of resistance training programs are out. That’s where BFR comes in:

BFR is the mirror image of BBS. It provides little mechanical tension, minimal muscle damage, but massive metabolic stress. That’s why you can sneak it into the same week as a BBS workout without undermining recovery.

Here is a visual way of looking at it. Just to keep things simple, we’ll express everything in “Muscle Building Units”. Muscle protein synthesis peaks in the first 24 hrs, and the rate of muscle protein synthesis gradually declines over the course of a week. Seventy % of the muscle growth will occur in the first 48hrs. By sneaking in a 15 minute BFR workout at 72hrs, you basically reset the muscle protein synthesis curve. This doesn’t give you double the hypertrophy, but it yields an extra 50% with a 15 minute time commitment you can do at home with tiny dumbells rather than machines. Another bonus is that you can do accessory work on lagging muscles by doing things like bicep curls or calf exercises, or focusing on stabilizing muscles that aren’t totally engaged during big compound machine exercises.

daddyoh · 2020-01-03 20:27:45 UTC

@Don_Q

Bob,

Nick did a better job than I ever could explaining. I’m interested in being the most opposite of frail I can be:

And there are metabolic improvements that I desire as well.

Both BBS and BFR produce metabolic changes that I am can benefit from. BBS training has proven it’s worth to me in dramatic body recomposition and lower BP which I’m assuming is related to reduced IR.

I was already doing BBS but this video got me really excited and allowed me to push beyond my then-current mental barriers.

BFR has not proven itself to me yet but I’m just getting started with it.

The stronger I get, in terms of muscle as well as connective tissue health, the more I want to continue.

I have lost visceral fat all over my body. I have probably lost subcutaneous fat as well but I have a lot more around my middle section to lose.

Having had connective tissue issues with my ankle from years gone by, I’m hoping that when I can enlist my feet and ankles in BBS training with leg presses, I will be able to strengthen my ankle tendons.

I’m going to add BFR for my arms slowly. An advantage of both BBS and BFR, but more so BFR is increased vascular health. Better vascular health also reduces the chance for stroke, heart attacks and lowers BP.

I hope this helps you. The video is worth the time if you are considering BBS training.

CFLBob · 2020-01-03 21:22:28 UTC

Thanks @Don_Q and @daddyoh. That makes it a lot more clear - but leaves one big question. What causes CNS to need to recover? What does a BBS workout do that damages (overstresses?) the CNS?

I’m with you, Eric, on wanting to be anti-fragile. I started trying to do BBS simply for more strength. I’m a month short of turning 66. Last March, my wife and I were starting to wash the cars and she tripped on the hose. Landed on the concrete walkway instead of the grass and broke a piece off the top of her thigh bone. She was unable to do anything for a few months, so I had to do everything around the house and it just emphasized that I need more “Area Under the Curve” (excellent video, BTW - I watched it a few weeks ago). Here’s my wife lying injured in the front yard and I couldn’t do a thing for her. For all the help I could give, she could have been on the moon. I had to call the ambulance to get two young guys to lift her.

Truth is that more strength for day to day living is always a good thing. I’m 6’ (or was) and too close to 200 again. She’s 4’10" and pretty close to half my weight. I have more muscle mass in one thigh than she has in her body, or close to it. If I get in trouble, she’s not lifting anything off me or doing much to help. But if I have to carry her to the car I want to be able to do that.

I was going to say “people are strange” but maybe it should be “I’m strange”. I don’t mind riding my bike as hard as I can in a sprint or to get over a hill, but I hate that sensation of lifting to failure; of trying with every ounce to do another curl (say) and not being able to. I need to figure out how best to do a BBS workout with what I have at home.