Biosense

(Melissa Facchina) #1

Has anyone used Biosense as an acetone reader - they are seemingly the only FDA approved meter for diabetes management? It displays readings in ACEs, I notice others display readings in PPM. I consistently have readings of 18-25 ACEs, which in theory should correlate to BHB values of 1.8-2.5 mmol/L. Per Biosense. However I am fat adapted and my BHB values are typically 0.3-0.4 mmol/L - with an occasional 0.5-0.8.
Curious if anyone else is using this meter and if they’ve determined exactly how to calculate the PPM from ACEs.

Thanks!

#2

Measuring ketones as a whole is a waste of time and money, measuring breath when you have the ability to test blood is even more of a waste. Your ketone levels don’t correlate with fat loss speed, so why test? The only people who have any benefit of testing them are people doing keto as a medical intervention, who actually (need) to have high ketones all the time to avoid something like an Epileptic seizure or other neurological condition from flaring up.

ACE’s are make beleive, they’re a proprietary measurement system BioSense made to test a “broad range of ketone levels” whatever that nonsense means, you’re only breathing out one of them.

Don’t be a victim of marketing.

(Joey) #3

@Melissa_Facchina Welcome to forum. Based on your profile, it sounds like you’ve been making awesome progress through keto WOE!

This, along with @lfod14’s comments above, make me wonder why you’d want to spend $300 on a breath-tester for something that won’t likely make any difference whatsoever to your health - even if it were reliable as a meaningful measure (questionable!).

Since you already know your BHB levels, you’ve likely got the best info readily available for home testing.

Spend the $300 on something else and continue along the path of great success you’ve been achieving for yourself! :+1:

(Melissa Facchina) #4

Appreciate the note. Except I’ve already spent the $300! I happen to be a data geek and like to understand all facets of what’s going on. I have consistently been in ketosis for 7 months. I’ve lost 55 lbs. I feel like my blood glucose is fairly stable between 85-95 depending on my hormone cycle. However I went down this rabbit hole when I realized that I adhere strongly to a clean keto diet with lots of veggies and fiber but a net carb count around 17-25g daily. I do HIIT every day for 30-45 mins and walk another 4-6 miles during the day. I was sure I must’ve been in strong ketosis and then I met the keto mojo meter LOL … which was consistently giving me readings of 0.3-0.5 mmol/L of BHB. Every now and again I’ve managed a 0.7-1 mmol/L but that’s generally on the heels of exercise followed by immediate rest - like a massage. So in my panic of “not being in ketosis” I bought the Biosense. I’ve used it daily for the last 2.5 months and have found that by acetone levels, I am in fact almost always in moderate ketosis levels. I’ve also become educated that active folks, who have become truly fat adapted (I know I am by insulin’s values and lipid panels with my blood work) tend to have lower BHB values. So the panic subsided some. However the data geek in me now is experimenting with different food choices, different IF durations, different exercise patterns, etc. Because my BHB is almost exclusively 0.3-0.4 it’s not precise enough for me to understand what effects any of these changes are driving. Hence the ACEs question.
Thank you for the time to answer and the thoughts - I do hate the idea of wasting money on products that are useless. I do, however, find this one fairly useful.

(Joey) #5

As a fellow data-geek I can relate. But you must no doubt appreciate that you are clearly in ketosis. Given your carb intake, your body is producing the amount of ketones you need … not more. You’re now a well-oiled ketone-generating machine!

Since you spent the $$ already, I won’t contribute to any remorse for the decision. Measuring with another device will give you more data. For us data mongers, that’s an incremental benefit regardless :slight_smile:

But please put your mind at ease. If your body were continuing to produce markedly higher levels of ketones left to circulate in your blood, it would suggest you are NOT yet fat adapted - i.e., the extra ketones are not being utilized by your mitochondria.

On the contrary, you mitochondria ARE using the ketones being produced, that’s why they’re no longer excessive.

As for whether you are in ketosis or not … (a) you not eating any meaningful amount of carbs and (b) you’re alive and posting on a forum. (a) + (b) = ketosis. Otherwise, you’d be face down on the keyboard and dead by now.

You’re now an official keto heroine! :vulcan_salute:

(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #6

Please allow a slight correction. My understanding is that the liver overproduces ketones at first, because the skeletal muscles need them while they are re-adapting to fatty-acid metabolism. But once they are fat-adapted again, the skeletal muscles actively pass up on glucose and ketone bodies, sparing them for other organs (for example, red blood corpuscles require glucose, and heart muscle thrives on ketones). It appears that is the point at which the liver slows production and does a better job of matching it to demand.

During the process of keto-adaptation, the skeletal muscles heal their mitochondria and produce new ones, and at some point the metabolism of our adipose cells stops being so tightly regulated and becomes uncoupled from the cells’ metabolic needs. So our adipose tissue starts consuming more fatty acids, even as our skeletal muscles become more efficient at metabolising them. The human body is a marvelous thing.

(Melissa Facchina) #7

Thank you for the science here. I’ve been following your responses to various questions for quite some time now - I think you also do DDF? I started Marty’s program recently and have been amazed with the additional insight.
Nonetheless, you’ve been helpful here, as usual. Thank you!

(Melissa Facchina) #8

Thank you for the virtual high five! Love to share in that energy.
Your thoughts are confirming the knowledge I feel like I’ve tried ravenously to acquire over the last weeks / months and I certainly feel awesome being in a community where folks understand and are willing to support. Thank you!

(Joey) #9

You bet! Been there, with many of the same concerns along the way.

If you haven’t noticed yet, have a look at @PaulL’s clarification with a more precise description of my “cartoon” version of the science of ketone-sparing transformations during/after fat adaptation. Cheers.

(Melissa Facchina) #10

You’re awesome SomeGuy Joey! I have been shocked at how little information is available for those folks who’ve made it to the fat adapted side. If all the literature points to 0.5 mmol/L minimum, poor folks are pouring fat into their systems just trying to keep up. You’ve been wonderful!

(Bob M) #11

I don’t think we should ever criticize people because they want to take data. I started taking data in 2016, and still take it (though dropped blood ketones a while ago – too low in the mornings to tell me anything). Without people like Melissa, you wouldn’t learn info like this. These are ketonix (breath analyzer) readings from 6 years ago:

image

Readings from the same machine now:

image

6 years ago, I could easily get into the 80s. Now, 40 is very high for me.

It’s people like us who provide evidence that you can’t get if people don’t take data.

When Dave Feldman started getting a ton of cholesterol tests done (very expensive, by the way), people thought what he was doing was useless. And not only have they been proven to be wrong, but he’s about to radically change the way (some) doctors think about “bad” cholesterol.

(Joey) #12

@ctviggen Data rules. :vulcan_salute:

(p.s. - I love science. It’s the scientific community that scares me.)

(Melissa Facchina) #13

Appreciate the support. Your spreadsheet was actually the driving force for me in maybe starting to understand that my results weren’t abnormal. Thank you for sharing with the community!

(Bob M) #14

I would highly recommend keeping it up, especially with breath ketones, as then there’s only one cost – the device. The issue will be interpretation, as breath ketones are not blood ketones (though I have seen some data where these track very well).

The other issue is testing. Say you think that eating higher fat causes higher ketones or exercising reduces ketones. This is where I had a hard time (back when my ketones were high enough to measure this). I would THINK I had a pattern, then my pattern would break. The first break, you might think that’s an anomaly. The second, that’s a tough one. The third, it’s no longer an anomaly.

What I found was the the testing devices we have aren’t great. Pin prick glucose meters are considered to be “accurate” if they are within 15 % of the real value. Well, if they were always 15% high, that might not be bad. But I could take samples from two different fingers and get two different results. Not great.

I found something similar for ketones, as I have a picture with three ketone meters reading 0.2, 0.4, and 0.8 mmol/l. That’s tough, as it’s the type of error that means any test result might be meaningless.

I hope you test and get a pattern that’s repeatable. Just because I didn’t for many things, this doesn’t mean you won’t.

If you do some testing:

  • How long does it take you to get back into ketosis from a high carb event (say, birthday party with ice cream cake, vacation)?
  • Can you stay in ketosis even doing something like eating ice cream for a birthday, but only eating ice cream (or consider something else where you have a high carb load, but only for a short time)
  • If you get high ketones, do you notice any benefits to high ketones as compared to low? (I can’t really test this, because I need to fast 4+ days to get ketones near 2.0, and fasting that long causes stuff not associated with ketones.)

Anyway, there are definitely tests that could be interesting to have results from.