If I was trying to cure cancer, I’d try anything possible and see if it helps. The point is to lower glucose enough to starve the glycolitic cells while letting healthy cells feed on ketones. Adding exo-ketones could be a tool in the toolbox.
Bhb Salts..any suggestions on brand that really works
Jeffmac69
(Jeff)
#22
I have been reading with interest. From what I understand, adding ketones to your body just adds more ketones to burn so puts your natural ketones at the back of the queue.
carolT
#23
I haven’t seen this argument before, but ketones definitely involve a signalling function and are part of a negative feedback loop. Ketone receptors are used to down-regulate release of FFA from adipose tissue to avoid going too high.
KetoCancerMom
(Cancer Fighting Ketovore :))
#24
Yes, I was talking from a keto and cancer perspective. I’ve been using one scoop of MCT oil powder daily (most days) to flavor my coconut cream.
I missed the party originally about the topic being about BHB salts (probably just skimmed over it). Sorry about that. Then the topic seemed to be less about salts and more about exogenous ketones in general (whether salts, powders, or oils).
Are the salts more for electrolyte replacement?
carolT
#25
No, they have formulated a “salt” that contains ketone bodies you can ingest so your body doesn’t have to produce them from either bodyfat or eaten fat. They go straight into the bloodstream to increase ketone levels. Another type of exogenous ketone supplements are called esthers.
Dom D’Agostino talks about exogenous ketones used in conjunction with hyperbaric oxygen therapy for cancer here
David_Stilley
(Full Metal KETO AF)
#26
MCT oil is like any other keto friendly oil, more specifically coconut oil. MCT and coconut don’t need to go through the lymphatic system before the liver has access to make ketones. They go directly from the digestive system to the liver. So quicker ketones and less work for the metabolism is the difference there. Exogenous ketones are different because they go straight into the blood from the digestive track. I’m not suggesting MCT oil is necessary, but it’s okay as a ketogenic fat. 
KetoCancerMom
(Cancer Fighting Ketovore :))
#27
So it’s just an alternative to powder and oil? Is there a ranking in terms of effectiveness.?
carolT
#28
There’s a big ol’ debate (war) between Dr. Veech and D’Agostino as to the better alternative. Ketone salts are cheap and easy to produce, ketone esthers are isomerically correct but not commercially available - that may have changed. Both have good arguments and both seem invested in their side by money and/or ego.
SporkyDonkey
#29
I’d say neither. Was looking for some studies when I found this article. Says things better than I ever could.
carolT
#30
I agree with the conclusion regarding fat-burning.
So, it seems that exogenous ketones neither lower insulin nor promote fat burning. They’re just another fuel that will be burned before the fat on your bum and your belly.
To be fair, that paper from 1964 was before they discovered the nicotinic acid/ketone receptor that supresses lipolysis in 2003, so an insulin/glucagon mechanism was assumed to be the sole cause. [they also injected ketones directly into the bloodstream, maximizing effect]
From the other linked study, they show a slight insulin response you mentioned. About the same as fat.
There were no significant differences in insulin after FAT and KE int
If you look at the part of the same paper where they combine ketones and carbs
No differences in plasma insulin concentration were observed between KE+CHO and CHO conditions.
Frankly, based on this, I don’t know where Marty came up with the 50% as insulogenic as carbs idea for his formula. “Same as fat” seems more appropriate. [Also, this was a test where exercise was initiated 10 min after the drink. Testing at typical insulin response times is confounded by this.]
atomicspacebunny
(Bunny)
#31
I had the same opinion and still very skeptical but apparently they can help with weight loss? Or burning up body fat? According to most Doctors “IT CAN” but it could also be attributed to a little bit of evidence and financial kick-backs to the doctors promoting a certain product?
atomicspacebunny
(Bunny)
#33
Some of the issues I am seeing with endogenous vs. exogenous ketosis is:
Exogenous Ketone Esters & Salts
-
…increased glycation of red blood cells mixed with a high carb diet? (if your hba1c looks bad or little high but not exactly diabetic range that may be why but is that a good or bad thing, a higher hba1c could mean decreased glycation with other factors and are viewed as a whole?)
-
If your feeling tired most of the time? (but not symptomatic[2] of e.g. hypoglycemia[2], then your probably burning body fat; glycogen storage is depleting?) Or sitting their with all this energy from too many exogenous ketones, that is not being expended? (glycogen stores are full; no body fat gets burned?) Even if you exercise you have to burn up all that extra energy first before all that magical burning of body fat happens?
-
If your sitting their feeding your glycogen stores ketones and glucose it really does not matter because it is doing absolutely nothing and you are wasting your money on a whole lot of nothing? It may work in the beginning until your body develops a tolerance to counteract the weight-loss generated by the artificial induction of exogenous ketones? The body (metabolism) becomes dependent on the exogenous resources[1]?
Image Link: To Ketone or Not to Ketone: Mineral Salts Related: Effect of a Sodium and Calcium DL- β - Hydroxybutyrate Salt in Healthy Adults+
Footnotes:
[1] “…Seen from this perspective, AcAc generated in the liver acts as a NAD+ donor for the periphery, whereas pure BOHB taken orally, to the extent that it is retro-converted to AcAc (Sherwin 1975), potentially deprives the periphery of NAD+. …” “…If given all as a single salt, 50 grams per day of BOHB would mandate daily intakes of 5.8 g Mg++, 9.6 g Ca++, 11.0 g Na+, or 18.8 g K+. Even if divided up carefully as a mixture of these various salts, it would be problematic getting past 30 grams per day of BOHB intake. And again, most of the currently marketed ketone salt formulations are made with a mix of the D- and L-isomers of BOHB, so the actual delivered dose of the more desirable D-isomer is considerably less. The other concern with the salt formulations is that, as the salts of weak acids, they have an alkalinizing metabolic effect that might have a modest but cumulative effect on blood pH and renal function. …” …More
[2] Megan Ramos: “… Now, I, myself, am keto adapted and I follow a very strict ketogenic diet 95% of the time. I’m still human, guys, so cut me some slack for the 5% of the time that I’m off my game. But my blood sugar levels are typically between 3 and 3.9 mmol/L, which translates into 50 to … or sorry 54 to 70 mg/dL. So, that 65 to 99 mg/dL is considered to be normal by government standards here in Canada, the 54 to 70 is considered to be common amongst ketogenic population. A lot of my patients too, who follow ketogenic diet, they’re getting sugars between 3 and 3.9 or between 54 and 70. What does it mean? What is normal? What is acceptable for someone who’s keto adapted? We’re still learning. I usually gauge how my body’s feeling at a certain blood sugar level. I let that determine whether or not it’s normal for me. Hypoglycemia is not defined as a set of numbers. It’s defined as a set of symptoms, so dizziness, mental fatigue, shaking, palms sweaty, hands. That defines hypoglycemia. It’s a list of symptoms. …” “…A lot of research shows that fat burning occurs between 1.5 and 3.O mmol/L. There are some research that indicates that once you’re above 3, it doesn’t increase your rate of fat loss . But there’s a difference between 1.5 and 3.O. Yes, 3.O indicates more body fat burning or more fat burning in general than 1.5 mmol/L. The researches done doesn’t really show much more of a significant impact of having ketones of 4, 5 or 6 as compared to 3 for weight loss and fat burning. What should your numbers be? …” “… What is really optimal, we don’t really know. Also, for patients that are fasting, when you’re in a fasting state and you start to get ketones of 0.5 and 1.5, that does actually indicate some body fat burning. If you’re in a fasted state and you see ketones of 1, don’t beat yourself up. You are burning fat . We know that that 1 is not coming from nutritional ketosis because you haven’t eaten. You’re fasting. …” …More
carolT
#34
The potential benefit I see, besides giving a “boost” to mental function, exercise, or hyperbaric survival, is appetite supression. Unfortunately, this study is comparing them to dextrose, which makes it less valuable.
atomicspacebunny
(Bunny)
#35
CONCLUSIONS: Increased blood ketone levels may directly suppress appetite, as KE drinks lowered plasma ghrelin levels, perceived hunger, and desire to eat.
“…and desire to eat…”
Hmmm? The question then becomes; what are we eating when we do eat? Is this creating a perpetual cycle to eat junk food? I’m strictly talking about those who do not really adhere to a ketogenic diet and just eat whatever thinking those ketone pills are some kind of magical panacea?
carolT
#36
Yes. Desire to eat compared to dextrose, which is horrible for increasing desire for more sweets, but apparently glucose is the standard by which incretin secretion is measured.
[I’m still searching for a good study regarding exog and appetite. This might take a while as I’m not sure one exists.]
carolT
#37
Nope. That 2018 seems to be the latest and greatest on exogenous ketones and appetite.
For those still (insanely 
) curious at this point about the effects ketone bodies play on hunger signalling, I’ll refer you to these studies. They don’t mention exogenous ketones actions, though they do give a good overview of the situation.
Although the hunger-reducing effect of KD is well-documented, its main mechanisms of action are still elusive.The global picture is complicated by the contradictory role of ketosis on anorexigenic and orexigenic signals (summarizedin Figure 4). Ketones (mainly BHB) can act both orexigenically or anorexigenically…It can be postulated that the net balance of the contrasting stimuli results in a general reduction of perceived hunger and food intake. More studies are needed to explore the mechanism of potential beneficial effects of KD on food
control. https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpsyg.2015.00027/full
Although we have demonstrated associations between ketones and appetite regulating hormones, this does not indicate causality. However, it has been shown in mice that infusion of BHB increases circulating CCK and reduces food intake.(45) A similar study with measurement of other appetite-regulating hormones would be informative. http://dx.doi.org/10.1038/ejcn.2013.90
Oh, if I only had a dollar for every “more studies are needed” study. 
KetoCancerMom
(Cancer Fighting Ketovore :))
#38
Yes, but I’m not trying to lose any more body fat. I need the low GKI for theraputic (cancer) related reasons.
RightNOW
(PJ)
#40
I have taken exogenous ketones when I was inducting back into keto and my energy was in the dirt and I felt crappy. (Keto Rise product, I take half a dose. Not cheap.) It really did help with energy until I felt better. So the goal of taking them is not always ‘to lose fat’. Sometimes it’s just to survive functionally until the body is fully transitioned to a ketogenic level supplying decent quantity of ketones. For whatever reason (possibly because I am huge) it’s often really tough before it gets better.