Ate carbs late at night, ketones higher in morning - my theory

#1

I’m curious what may have happened here (not because I fret over my ketone levels, but I’m interested in the science).

I’m fairly well fat adapted. Registered 1.4mmol on blood meter in late afternoon. Had way too much dark chocolate late at night. Like probably 75g of carbs, plus the other 50 from earlier in the day (veggies, nuts, etc.)

Woke up this morning and ketones were 2.0mmol. Normally my ketones in the morning are lower.

I haven’t eaten since the dark chocolate and just registered 1.0mmol (but have been walking around all day).

Was this higher morning reading because my body said “heck with these ketones, let’s get rid of this glucose,” such that my ketones were not used and were still circulating in my blood when I woke up?

(Jane) #2

My understanding is the body will preferentially use glucose over ketones.

(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #3

. . . because too much blood glucose is a metabolic emergency and needs to be dealt with as soon as possible. It’s not that the body likes glucose better than ketones, just that serum glucose above a certain amount is dangerous and has to be cleared first. The advantage to being fat-adapted is that it is a more flexible metabolic state, so the body can handle a bit of extra carbohydrate and then return to metabolizing fat.

(Mark Rhodes) #4

The beta-hydroxybutrate (BHB) is a passive reading. That is it measures available ketones, not used. What the others are saying is that your body is still making ketones based on previous need. The sudden intake of glucose did not limit the BHB production only its use. So the higher reading was the direct response of not using ketones over the glucose you did use supplied by the chocolate.

Answer: yup

#5

Thanks, Mark. That’s what I suspected. Totally makes sense. I kept making ketones, but didn’t use them as much, hence the build up. Very interesting to get a 2.0 reading after a carb binge!

(Mark Rhodes) #6

Here is where a Ketonix helps understand the interplay. breath ketones are made from the spontaneous decarboxylation of acetyl-CoA. Once this is done the body needs to get rid of the acetone via the lungs. I can have a high BHB and a low BRace and vise versa as well as a low/low and a high/higher.

I had a very carbby weekend. No cheats but still my BG went higher than normal. I am starting a fast and watching this interplay. It is quite fun.

(Brian) #7

Very good, readable, and understandable answer! Makes a lot of sense.

Thanks for the post.

(Mark Rhodes) #8
BG BHB Brace GKI
Monday 5.6 0.2 41 PPM 60
Tuesday 4.7 1.7 65 2.7

As the little chart implies fasting for 36 hours brought down BG, raised serum BHB and increased my breath ketones. Of note the GKI is a great measure of where I am at in nutritional ketosis. By this time tomorrow I suspect I will be within range of therapeutic levels of ketosis and also likely engaging in some autophagy

(Omar) #9

I read that healthier guts bacteria will lead to more ketones production.

It is bpossible that the spike in blood glucose caused some good gut bacteria to thrive leading to more efficient ketone production.

I am not indicating that hi blood glucose is good for the useful bacteria. But maybe transitionaly
that what may had happened.

Just a thought that could be wrong.

(Mark Rhodes) #10
BG BHB Brace GKI Brace
Monday 5.6 0.2 41 28 2.458782
Tuesday 4.7 1.7 65 2.764706 1.301669
5.6 0.8 115 7 0.876609

At 39 hours fasted off a higher carb weekend:

A little later in the day with some moderate activity. My liver supplies the glucose elevating my serum levels while my BHB drops due to using the ketones for energy not met by glucose. This is corroborated with breath ketones ( a measure of “used” ketones) going from 65 to 115.

It is possible that gut bacteria leads to greater glucose. What would cause the BG to rise with activity increase and decrease when exertion is over?

(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #11

I’m not so sure about that. What would the mechanism be? The ketones are produced in the liver, generally from the fatty acids in our food. Other primates have much longer intestines, to give their bacteria time to turn cellulose into fatty acids, but our intestines are much shorter, because of changing from herbivores to omnivores after we branched off from the rest of them. I don’t believe our gut bacteria would have enough time to produce fatty acids for the liver to use.

I also don’t see how increased glucose in the blood benefits bacteria in the intestine. I have heard that fiber is supposed to slow down the breakdown of carbohydrates into glucose and give the bacteria a chance at them, but if they are consuming the glucose from those carbohydrates, that is glucose that wouldn’t make it into the bloodstream.

Interesting discussion, guys!

(Omar) #12

The mechanism is obvious.
Actually I find this topic as a key to understand keto and to fine tune specially for people who are failing at keto and people who are not seeing the benefits that others have experienced.

It is something overlooked and maybe neglected.

I believe that most of the failed attempts to adopt the keto diet are caused by the disturbance of the gut bacteria while transitioning into the keto way of dieting.

my motivation for search is that I have IBS and therefore fragile gut bacteria balance.

Disturbed gut bacteria will mean poor production of the nutritions that is required to produce ketons in the first place.

Please read this article to find answers to your question.