Are really all carbs bad? Or only some? If so, which ones?

(Doing a Mediterranean Keto) #1

I continue doing my low-calorie keto diet. It goes pretty well. I am at 85.3kg now, which is about the weight when I got married. I am happy, no cravings to eat, I feel my body is reeeeeeally well adapted to this way of eating.

What is the difference to before? I do not eat refined grains (nor sugar; but I have never eaten much sugar).

Then, I could say: I am the prototypical person for which keto diet works well.

But then, I am eating massive amounts of vegetables! Plus massive amounts of olive oil, plus some protein (meat, fish, etc.).

So, I see the carbs of vegetables do lots of good to me. But the carbs of refined grains do lots of damage to me.

It seems the “official” argument of keto diet is that in fact this is not true: vegetables have low levels of carbs, so even with big amounts of vegetables, possibly one never reaches the 20g of carbs per day limit, to remain in ketosis.

Maybe.

But my body reaction is so stark, that I start to doubt that this is the case: could it be that not all carbs are the same? Could it be there are good carbs, and bad carbs?

(Katie) #2

Well, I think your reaction is not very typical. If I eat more than about 4 oz of leafy greens I react with gut problems and feeling ill. I can never get away with carrots, tomatoes, peppers 
 regardless of amount.

They are all carbs. All carbs turn to glucose in your system 
so it is truthful to say all carbs are sugar.

If it is working for you then go with it.

#3

Good carbs are more complex and offer more than just energy, most importantly fiber but also vitamins and minerals e.g. dark green vegetables.

Bad carbs are usually higher in calories, higher in fructose, higher in sugar and dont have a lot of fiber or other extras beyond energy e.g. fruits.

I usually just pop decent multivitamin and eat the veggies for fiber in omad, so the fiber ends up buffering all the carbs im having from that one meal, therefore keeping load on body minimal and glycedemic/insulin spike lower.

(Full Metal KETO AF) #4

Here’s my take,

Good carbs are a myth.

Low amounts of carbohydrates along with foods that have nutritious elements doesn’t mean the carbs are “healthy” It means that you derive some nutritional advantages in spite of carb content. Think of it as Carb Tax you pay for including foods you enjoy or get some nutritional value from including. Eggs, liver, and cheese are good examples of food with carbohydrates that are tolerable because of the big benefits you get including them, their carbs aren’t “healthy”.

Carbohydrates as a nutritional element are completely unnecessary as is fiber.

If you enjoy eating lots of vegetables and are doing fine with them great. Many people can tolerate 50 or more grams of carbs and remain in ketosis while some need to keep it under 20 or even 10 grams to stay in ketosis. Especially people with diabetes or insulin resistance.

I personally have lost more weight in recent months severely limiting vegetables. In fact I hit maintenance weight after a long stall. I do still eat raw tomatoes since I grew them but they are gone now. I use fresh herbs cooking and I eat cauliflower and zucchini fairly often. Some days no vegetables too. Some of this limitation stemmed from dental work and not being able to chew salad and fibrous stuff like cabbage, kale and collards. But I definitely don’t feel worse off without those foods in the last couple of months.

Carbs aren’t healthy, they are a tax we pay. :cowboy_hat_face:

(Scott) #5

I eat some veggies (small portions) because I like to and they add some color to the plate. I don’t eat them for the carbs they contain but limit them for the carbs they contain. This has worked for me however if I were to ever develop cancer I would get as close to zero carb as I could get.

#6

I guess they are very unnecessary to you, but dont forget they can play bigger/important part in other peoples lifes. Both of them can be useful if used accordingly.

(Full Metal KETO AF) #7

I guess we disagree on this ODE. The dietary sourced carbs (glucose and fructose) are not healthy or necessary. Our bodies will manufacture enough glucose to cover our needs without excess insulin responses we get from eating them. Perhaps other nutrients that come along with them are useful but the sugars (carbs) are not.

Fiber is completely unnecessary and is inflammatory to the digestive tract for many people. That’s why it moves through you so quick or if in too high of an amount will block you up. Your body wants to get rid of it. The whole feed your micro biome argument is faulty, that can alter whenever you change foods or location in the world. If you start eating vegetables again after a long time without them your micro biome adapts back to handling them again. When you eat without fiber, ie animal foods your fecal output drops off quite a bit in frequency and volume for most people. This is because those foods are being mostly absorbed. Why would you want to rush digestion of healthy proteins from meat out of your intestines with fiber before you’ve maximized absorption?

:cowboy_hat_face:

#8

Your needs likely yes, but not everybodys. I know from ur standpoint, theres zero reasons going back to eating carbs, it would likely even become suicidal to do that.

What im saying is carbs can be great for some things and shouldnt be completely cast out as completely useless. Also what i didnt bother writing on my earlier post was that i dont mean that either of those “versions” of carbs are good or bad, the other just offers more with less downsides.

So many things are inflammatory and so many things cause disease to some degree, u couldnt eat anything if u tried to avoid all bad side effects and u gotta have something or ull die of hunger. Havent read too much about absorption to say anything back on that, the advantages which green veggies offer for me tho and my needs are just too good to turn down. Ill watch the video you linked in a bit, cheers.

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #9

I think we need to be clear what exactly is a carbohydrate. And what it is not. What a carbohydrate is: a sugar molecule. The fundamental carbohydrate is the monosaccharide glucose/fructose. Both of these contain the same number of carbon, hydrogen and oxygen atoms: C6H12O6. The difference between them is the atomic structure of the molecules. The difference causes slightly different metabolic processing to occur. All other carbohydrates are simply different combinations of these two monosaccharides and the atomic structure of the resulting molecules.

The only difference that matters: cellulose. Cellulose is the most common carbohydrate and is present in all plant-source carbohydrates. What makes cellulose different is that it is the one carbohydrate that is totally indigestible to humans.

A useful way to ask the question ‘good carbs bad carbs?’ is to ask how much cellulose does it contain. The closer to pure glucose and/or fructose the faster the carb is metabolized to glucose, or in the case of fructose metabolized to glucose and fatty acids. The more cellulose a carb contains the less of it gets metabolized to glucose and the slower it gets metabolized. In other places where I have said the only difference between carbs is a couple hours, this difference (caused by cellulose content) is what I’ve referred to.

What carbs are not: the source of essential nutrients. Some folks want to split hairs about this and claim that some essential nutrients occur primarily or only in carbs. But the fact is: a carbohydrate molecule is fuel. Period. Full stop. Conflating nutrients contained in plant-sourced food with carbohydrates is mistaken. Plants are primarily two things: cellulose and water. Whatever nutrients are contained in plants are in addition to whatever digestible carbohydrates they contain. Most of those nutrients are dissolved in the water.

(Parker the crazy crone lady) #10

I tend to do well, feel well, when eating lots of veg also. I’m not sure about my ketosis levels tho, as I forget to test often. Plus, I’ve stopped eating veg for the most part recently.

(Parker the crazy crone lady) #12

Yes, I replied before finishing the thread, and I see what you’re saying. I agree, and don’t seek out “healthy” carbs for carbs sake. I do like the nutritional adds some veg/fruit/legumes can contribute, but of course not eating them currently.

(Joey) #13

There are plenty of perspectives on this to go around. To my knowledge, the science (RTC-based) on this specific question remains incomplete.

My current view is that some amount of vegetables can be part of a very healthy diet. Personally, I don’t think of the carbs contained in leafy, vitamin-rich green veggies as a “tax” (any more than I’d think of the carbs in an egg or in a handful of nuts as such.)

Sure, eat veggies as part of your overall diet while ensuring you get the vast majority of your energy from animal fats. These are “good” carbs in the sense that they provide a natural source for vitamins/minerals and sheer taste enjoyment.

Banishing all veggies simply because they have some trace amount of carbs strikes me not as being healthy but as being silly. If we do go down that rouad then we should banish eggs, nuts, fresh coconut, etc., too for the same reason - they all have trace carbs.

(PJ) #14

@Arbre it sounds like what you are doing is working really well for you. In which case: awesome! If you like it, and it’s working, more power to you.

Bear in mind that people on this forum, we love debating about everything, down to the most tedious details that will make most peoples’ eyes roll up in their head. Every thread is an opportunity. So don’t take any of that as being about you personally. Everyone is a fan of doing what works for you, and everyone knows that differs by the person somewhat.

I love hot peppers, garlic and scallions, and rarely a paste (plum) tomato. I am going to eat them regardless of what kind of diet I am on, so it better make room for them. I also love homemade kefir and homemade yogurt that my gut biome desperately needs, although I only just began it again, so if it should turn out that I don’t lose bodyfat while ingesting it, even in small (like 2-3oz) amounts a few times a day, then I will simply have to do it part of the week and fast on the weekend or something and hope that compensates. My gut needs more help than the rest of me, and that and my liver are getting my full-bore love and affection before everything else, including the ongoing reduction of my seriously oversized ass. Health first.

There is a fabulous (though very dense) book called Good Calories, Bad Calories by Gary Taubes. (It’s called The Diet Delusion in the UK which is a far better title.) It is basically this same kind of idea to some degree: that of all the food we can eat, some have a different effect on us than others. And it seems carbohydrates are mostly the big problem for us, but within that, processed carbohydrates (and added fructose, we now know) vastly moreso. Grains are pretty processed. But also:

More than six years ago on my blog (totally unrelated to diet, aside from it being a part of my personal life), I had this reference:

Finally someone did a study specific to gluten and obesity (instead of just the other gazillion issues it causes). The reason being that the ‘adipose system’ is closely involved with the ‘immune system’ and so obesity is usually one of the early signs of degrading health. Most of this is quoting someone else:

The study was set up to examine the differences in specific genetic and biochemical markers between rats fed gluten and rats that were kept gluten free. The research team chose biological markers that could indicate the onset of obesity and metabolic syndrome, precursors to diabetes and cardiac issues. Both groups of rats were fed high fat diets. But one group was gluten free and the other group’s diet was 4.5 percent gluten. Even without tracing their predetermined markers, it was obvious the gluten free mice exhibited weight loss without any trace of lipid (fat) excretion. That means they weren’t losing weight because they were flushing calories but because they were using the energy. One review of the study said:

“
 the weight gain associated with wheat consumption has little to do with caloric content per se; rather, the gluten proteins 
 disrupt endocrine and exocrine processes within the body, as well as directly modulating nuclear gene expression 
 to alter mammalian metabolism in the direction of weight gain.”

Not surprised. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23253599

Now that is a good example of a food that clearly causes issues totally aside from its carbohydrate or calorie count. Gluten is in wheat etc., but there are variations of it in all grains (and lectins in legumes). Some people may respond more than others with problems. And some of this depends on the gut integrity, antibiotics over the course of one’s life, and so on. I react more to rice than anything, despite having had very nearly zero of it until adulthood. I don’t react to corn at all, despite it being possibly the worst of modern agri. I have no issue eating peas, but when I took even a little bit of pea protein in a homemade blend for protein drinks, it had a horrific, very unique and truly memorable effect. I think most of us have no idea how our body internally actually responds to most proteins. Some of the research that people like Dr. William Davis refs is kind of specific to that, how people can be very affected by something like gluten, but consciously have no symptoms, no idea it’s a problem.

Well it’s possible – and nobody has gone here yet that I know of, this is just my imagination – that the kind of issues we see with grain and legume proteins, might be an issue with other things too, including some of the antinutrients etc. that are in agricultural produce. Maybe some of us do ok with some things and not others, just like with the proteins. It’s a serious “black box mystery” unless you get a very obvious symptom, and unless you eat things very consistently or separately in order to even know it’s a problem in the first place.

I consider my eating plan to be a gigantic life experiment, much like the archetype imaginal workings I do internally as a spiritual metaphysical or psychological exercise (kind of all three). Everything is an experiment.

So you find that grains don’t do well with you and some veggies do. If you like them, if your health is good, if the weight you’re losing is good, that is awesome. And some people (especially it seems, women) seem to do better with a few more carbs (still ketogenic
 or not, guess it depends on the person). Much of the study done on everything, including fasting for example, is rather male-centric, and when females are included, what we see is that women do not tend to respond the same way as men to everything, and when they do, often it’s only some small % of the effect. So you are the only one who can know best what is working for you.

I write on Quora, which must be hurting for contribution given that I am apparently the top writer in the Obesity AND Keto AND Dieting categories last time I checked (it varies). I try to get through a core concept that I see noted in a post above:

That sugars/starches (carbohydrates) are only energy, period. That fats are both energy and nutrient. And proteins are nutrients. That the only real point of keto is to reduce non-nutrient sugars/starches to minimal, so that the diet is “nutrient-dense.” If it’s not a nutrient, don’t ingest it. Sure there are some nutrients bunded “with” the energy but all those nutrients can be gotten in other ways
 and without the many issues that anything with carbs (such as antinutrients and course fiber) tends to bring.

Except potassium in quantity. I don’t mention that much. :rofl:

But if your veggies aren’t hurting you and they make your diet more awesome, more power to 'em.

(Full Metal KETO AF) #15

Perhaps I missed it, did someone suggest that? :flushed: :cowboy_hat_face:

(Bunny) #16


And yes you can burn the same fuel; acetone acetoacetate, beta hydroxybutyrate or ketone bodies with non-digestible carbohydrates and burn some serious ketones (endogenous dietary fat production via gut bacteria) without animal meats or fats as we can see below but it sometimes depends on the quality[2] of the resistant starch so all this talk about digestible carbohydrates (junk food or a whole food?) and whether or not they contain sugar or not is pure nonsense because you also oxidize dietary sugar when eaten depending on skeletal muscle volume to adipose fat ratio and amount of natural dietary fiber contained within it when eaten; everything does not revolve around triggering an insulin (IGF-1 {liver} or insulin - beta cells {pancreas}):

“
That being said, you can add resistant starch to your diet without adding any digestible carbohydrates. For this purpose, many people have recommended supplements, such as raw potato starch.

Raw potato starch contains about 8 grams of resistant starch per tablespoon and almost no usable carbohydrate.

What’s more, it’s very cheap.

It tastes kind of bland and can be added to your diet in various ways, such as by sprinkling it on your food, mixing it in water or putting it in smoothies.

Four tablespoons of raw potato starch should provide 32 grams of resistant starch. It’s important to start slowly and work your way up, as too much too soon can cause flatulence and discomfort.

There’s no point in taking much more than that since excess amounts seem to pass through your body when you reach 50–60 grams per day.

It may take 2–4 weeks for the production of short-chain fatty acids[1] to increase and for you to notice all the benefits — so be patient. 
More

You can burn dietary fat from animal or plant sources, you can burn your own body fat, but you can also burn the short chained fatty acids your gut bugs make via non-digestible carbohydrates, those are what the gut bugs eat (digest) not you!

As I have stated and stressed before you go into ketosis when you sleep at night if your metabolically fit but once exceed your individual capacity for carbohydrate intake then you quit going into ketosis when you go to sleep at night so you have to eat resistant starch or more meat and fat and/or supplement with things like Apple Cider Vinegar, MCT’s or Coconut Oil to reset the metabolism to steer away from metabolic dysregulation from the damaged induced from excessive carbohydrate intake


Footnotes:

[1] Short - chain fatty acids (SCFAs), especially acetate, propionate and butyrate, are metabolites of saccharolytic fermentation of dietary fibers by the anaerobic intestinal microbiota. These end-products of fermentation have been shown to exert multiple beneficial effects on mammalian metabolism. 
More

[2] Antioxidant-Loaded Purple Potatoes: The Healthy, Versatile Carb

[3] “
The following types of fiber are best for the production of short-chain fatty acids in the colon (10Trusted Source, 11Trusted Source):

  • Inulin: You can get inulin from artichokes, garlic, leeks, onions, wheat, rye and asparagus.
  • Fructooligosaccharides (FOS): FOS are found in various fruits and vegetables, including bananas, onions, garlic and asparagus.
  • Resistant starch: You can get resistant starch from grains, barley, rice, beans, green bananas, legumes and potatoes that have been cooked and then cooled.
  • Pectin: Good sources of pectin include apples, apricots, carrots, oranges and others.
  • Arabinoxylan: Arabinoxylan is found in cereal grains. For example, it is the most common fiber in wheat bran, making up about 70% of the total fiber content.
  • Guar gum: Guar gum can be extracted from guar beans, which are legumes.

Some types of cheese, butter and cow’s milk also contain small amounts of butyrate. 
More

[4] Short-chain fatty acids and ketones directly regulate sympathetic nervous system via G protein-coupled receptor 41 (GPR41).

(Jane) #17

My n=1 experience is I never counted carbs in non-starchy veggies (but count corn, potatoes, peas, beans). I know tomatoes, peppers, onions and spices have carbs but I never counted them.

I understand some need to and I respect that. My rationale is they are whole foods and I am on maintenance

(Doing a Mediterranean Keto) #18

Does anybody know if there exists some “gluten-like” effect, similar to celiac disease (but not celiac disease), affected by grains?

I have checked the symptoms of celiac disease, and I do not have many of them. So, I believe I am not celiac.

But on the other side, grains (I cannot pinpoint which) have a major negative effect on me. Carbs from vegetables clearly do not (on the contrary, they are very positive for me).

#19

Apparently there is.

#21

This
 I think I developed that towards the end of my histamine intolerance battle
my leaky gut was causing all sorts of havoc in my body.

(Full Metal KETO AF) #22

I believe everyone is affected by wheat gluten in a negative way even if it seems there is no apparent symptoms. Gluten is only partially digestible. It causes damages to the gut in everyone to different degrees. I used to laugh at the gluten free thing for non celiacs. It became a fad pretty much here in Santa Cruz early on. Even my autistic son and his mom jumped on. I was in denial at the time about my son. I didn’t really believe in the leaky gut thing 15 years ago. After studying dietary stuff the last year I am understanding things better.

All grains and pseudo grains have lectins, phytic acid and other anti nutrients. All seeds do. Lectins are problematic for many. Also the other anti nutrients cause nutrient absorption issues.

:cowboy_hat_face: