Anyone gone from high fat, lower protein, to higher protein, lower fat?


(Bob M) #1

I’ve been low carb for almost 5 years. At some point, I read Jimmy Moore’s Keto Clarity, so my wife and I started adding fat to everything, add butter to steak, having fat bombs, all keto (high fat) meals. We even had bulletproof coffee for a while. (By the way, Jimmy Moore has a cognitive dissonance on this subject: adding butter to steak is good, but having a bullet proof coffee is bad. What’s the difference?)

Then I went on Twitter and found Ted Naiman. He’s the “eat protein!” guy. I bought a continuous glucose monitor to test if eating higher protein had an effect on my blood sugar. I ate meals with well over 100 grams of protein and low fat in a single meal. I could not find any blood sugar rise, except a very quick one if I ate protein with carbs in it (shrimp, mussels, etc.; not a lot of carbs in these, but when you’re eating a pound of it, it adds up). The only detriment I found was too much protein and too little fat give me a strange, “I don’t feel good” feeling. For instance, I ate about 1 3/4 pounds (single meal, after 36 hours fasting, weight lifting, HIIT) of “london broil” beef, which is very high protein and very low fat, and that was too much. Keeping the protein more reasonable (or adding any fat) helps with this.

So, I’ve gone from bulletproof coffees, fat bombs, and adding butter to my steak, to have meat naturally (no added fats, most times), eating ham a lot (advertised as “90+% fat free!”), and eating shrimp and mussels for lunch. If I eat something that’s very low in fat, like london broil, I’ll add fat to it (though oddly not for shrimp and mussels, which are very low in fat). Otherwise, I eat low fat primarily.

I still eat keto meals, as often these are easier to make for the family. But for myself, I tend to eat lower fat, higher protein. Thus, I’ll often have a lower in fat, higher in protein lunch and then a keto dinner. But if I’m still hungry, I’ll eat ham instead of say pepperoni or salami.

Anyone else done this?


(bulkbiker) #2

I would guess most people on a zero carb/carnivore way of eating…?
My question would be how is it working for you?
What are your aims and if you are succeeding then carry on.
I cook in animal fat but rarely add extra after cooking (although I do pour the cooking fat over the meal) is that the kind of thing you mean?


(Sheri Knauer) #3

This.

For the past few months I have been increasing the amount of protein I eat. When I first started, I was keeping it between 50-75g per day. Now I eat between 100 and 120g of protein per day. I also have been not adding so much extra fat in the form of butter, cheese, and oil like I did previously but just eating the fat that naturally is in the meal. I did have shrimp the other day and added some homemade alfredo sauce though. So my fat has come down a bit but I still eat what is considered a high fat diet.

The important thing for me is its working for me. I don’t have huge spikes in BG, my weight and energy levels are steady.

I think for someone who has a lot of metabolic issues/metabolic diseases,and/or a lot of insulin resistance, its suggested to stay on the lower end of protein consumption. For someone who has no metabolic issues, is active, and insulin sensitive, then I believe that consuming more protein is beneficial, especially as we get older.

So many people are afraid of consuming “too much” protein for fear of gluconeogenesis. As Dr Ben Bikman puts it “the ketogenic diet is possible because of gluconeogenesis. Without it, humans would have never survived.” He has some really great info regarding protein consumption. Here is a podcast that where he discusses protein and gluconeogenesis. Really great info: https://www.biohackerslab.com/ep42-dr-benjamin-bikman/


#4

I’ve basically done the same thing, on my end it was becoming noticeably too hard to put on muscle, having lifted years ago when not keto I knew the way my body (should) put it on vs what I was getting. I also had fat I wanted to loose and even though I’ve lost 100lbs thanks to keto that scale stopped and wasn’t moving again minus extended fasting, so I dropped excessive fat (I wouldn’t say low fat though) and upped my protein. Sure enough the weight started coming down, muscle soreness after hard workouts was almost gone and in a couple weeks it was noticeable in my lifting. Still love my fat and not afraid of it, but no longer finding ways to eat it just for the sake of eating it anymore. Big fan of Naiman and Bikman as well. I definitely think at first it helps people stay full and maybe not screw up as you’re fat adapting and probably helps your body get the message, but I think the default answer to everything being eat more fat is almost at problem level. Sometimes that IS the correct advise for people but in so many cases it’s not, yet will have 20 people telling a person to do exactly that.


(Pete A) #5

I’ve gone from around 70% fat 25 protein, 5 carbs to 65 fat 30 protein 5 carbs.

It varies but is working.


(Bob M) #6

About “goals”. Let me tell you a story. When I was younger, I wanted to be Arnold Schwarzenegger, so I set all of these goals about gaining mass and strength, eg, “Bench X by Y, squat Z by Y,…”. I then realized exactly how hard this is to do and how much genetics plays a part in getting bigger. I realized that I had mediocre genetics for bodybuilding (and terrible genetics for power lifting), and the only way I was going to look close to Arnold was to do drugs.

I have been on a low carb diet for about 5 years. I have tried so many things with n=1 tests I could take many paragraphs to tell you what I’ve tested. I started fasting 3.5 years ago, and have fasted many 4.5-5.5 days and many, many 3.5 days and too many 22-36 hour fasts to count. Right now, I can barely fast 22 hours, as my hands become so cold that I can’t touch myself let alone anyone else. If I eat, I’m fine; If I fast too long, I get cold. So, I’m basically eating when I get hungry and will continue to do so for the foreseeable future.

I’d post my DEXA scan results I had done, but my computer is being slow. In one year, I lost 5.6 (?) pounds of fat and gained 3.3 pounds of muscle, for a total scale loss of about two pounds.

Getting back to goals, I’m still about 35-40 pounds from where I was in my 20s, and I had way more muscle mass than then. So, my goal is basically “keep calm, and keto on”. It’s to do the best I can do, fast when I can, and let the cards lie where fall.

Anyway, I think protein requirements are personal. I do not think Ted Naiman is correct in some things (Jimmy Moore and Dr. Limansky tried his PSMF and HATED it), and he also was never obese, so his metabolism isn’t like mine. I’ve reached the conclusion that if you’re quite overweight and not exercising, you can probably have a lower protein intake. The more you exercise, the lower in weight you are, the better your metabolism, the higher protein you could eat. That’s why two people with dramatically different protein intakes can have arguments about the correct amount of protein. (And it may not be the only reason why – there could be others.)

I find I’m having difficulty eating fatty meats. I bought some salami from Costco and threw it away today. My taste buds rebel at the fattiness of it. Will that be the case a year from now? I have no idea.

Anyway, if you’re considering trying more protein and less fat, I’d say try it to see what happens.


#7

You may want to look into how large amounts of animal protein effects longevity and markers of optional health. I’m not talking about voices in the vegan camp, I’m taking about voices in the LC and fasting camp. Folks like Drs Longo, Perlmutter, and Pompa.

I keep my animal consumption under 1 lb per day, usually 6-8 oz. For me it’s not about protein being insulinogenic, it’s about elevating mTOR and IGF.


(Bob M) #8

I’ll be honest with you, I don’t care about either of those. Really. I eat double the amount you eat in one meal. And I feel fantastic and have boundless energy. So, mTOR and IGF are low on my priorities list. And, I’ve read so many conflicting sides of the story, I’m not sure either of these are that important to someone like me.

I realize that the 2 Keto Dudes are playing an episode where both of them lowered their protein and got benefits. Richard got lower blood sugar and higher ketones. I have looked through the over 1,300 samples I have of blood sugar and ketones, and I’ll be darned if I can tell eating more protein has caused my morning or normal blood sugar to increase. Ketones? I’m not sure. I started taking data back when ketone strips were $3+ each, so I didn’t take them often. Now that I can take them more often due to reduced cost, I realize that ketones are more dynamic than I thought.

I also find protein filling. For instance, today I did weight lifting (only about 20 mins, so not as much) and HIIT (22 mins of the latter). I ate several hours later, (drained) ground beef and shrimp with a can of sardines, some olives. It’s 4 hours later and I’m not hungry at all. I won’t get hungry for about another 4-6 hours. I will eat a keto meal tonight.


(Banting & Yudkin & Atkins & Eadeses & Cordain & Taubes & Volek & Naiman & Bikman ) #9

I have kind of gone the other way, unintentionally, lowering protein and raising fat. I don’t feel as good this way, so I’m going back to higher protein and not worrying about, but not seeking out extra fat. That said, I have some truffle butter the wife bought, and it’s going on some sirloin tonight. But I went back to cold brew with heavy cream instead of iced espresso with heavy cream, which is less heavy cream by a wide margin.


(Bob M) #10

I agree with you that trying to find what your body wants is a good thing.

I am currently in my low(er) fat phase, but I also eat high fat too. For instance, I’ll have a keto meal my wife made over the weekend tonight for dinner. And I’m not one to say that everyone must eat higher protein, as I don’t think that’s true, either. I think it likely varies from person to person and probably even varies by individuals over time. For instance, if you’re 250+ pounds and haven’t exercised in a while, higher protein may not do you much good. If you’re like me, though, and doing lifting to failure twice a week, HIIT three days a week, and spending the entire weekend doing a tough basement project, more protein might be good.

Jimmy Moore ate high protein, low calorie and had hypoglycemia, so high(er) protein definitely isn’t for everyone.

Like you, I’ve gone from drinking coffee with cream to black coffee, and now I’m drinking coffee with a little cream and some powdered MCT oil (the liquid stuff is disastrous for me). Part of that is because I’m having difficulty fasting, and for fasting I’d usually try to have black coffee, if I’m planning more than 22 hours of fasting. I’m not militant and if I enjoy fat and add some to my steak, maybe that’s what I need?

I think there are no good answers, but adding in more protein is an option to consider. I bought a CGM to prove Ted Naiman and his ideas of higher protein were wrong. While I’m not totally a convert (I don’t plan on doing a protein-sparing modified fast soon or ever), I was surprised at what I found.

About that whole mTor debacle:


(Katie the Quiche Scoffing Stick Ninja ) #11

Absolutely, natural progression for me as soon as I hit fat adaption.
Why would I want to continue eating dietary fat when my body fat had more than enough fuel to provide my daily needs? Cue extended fasting.

I mainly eat protein now, then fat, then carbs. I don’t drink bulletproof coffee anymore, I stopped that at week 6 as soon as I felt my hunger dissipate.
Why would I want to continue drinking what was basically a meal replacement when I didn’t need it anymore? (Which is why I don’t understand why people still drink bulletproof 2 years later)

I work on a feast fast workout schedule and I have been really successful with my body recomp.


(Running from stupidity) #12

I asked on Facebook and they disagreed.


(Katie the Quiche Scoffing Stick Ninja ) #13

Lmfao, they preferred me when I was fat.


(Jane) #14

:rofl:


(Jane) #15

I wish I had never added butter to my coffee!!! I love it and I drink one in the mornings. I know I don’t need the extra fat but I enjoy it so much and not trying to lose anymore so it is my indulgence :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:


#16

I never did that much Bulletproof Coffee, but I add cream to my mine, oh yeah. Anywhere from 20 to 30 grams of HWC per 30 or 40 oz Stainless Steel Mug. Maybe twice a day.

But as to the question, I’m looking REAL hard at doing what the Original Poster posted. I believe I’m too low on protein to add significant strength with my High Intensity Resistance Training Protocol (Body By Science).

My weight loss phase is pretty much complete. And I’ve not been able to move the numbers much in the right direction of adding more lean mass so far. Part of that is I’m 64, I’m sure.

But yeah. I did pretty strict KETO macros during most of my 165 pound loss, starting Dec 29, 2016. And more protein is my next N=1 experiment.


#17

I started in April of this year and was eating mainly meat, chicken,hamburger,bacon,eggs,lots of cheeses.
I was having trouble loosing weight consistently then read about needing to have a 70% fat and 30% protein ratio, I recently started eating more coconut oil , like a heaping tablespoon in the morning with my vitamins and after noon with my burger or chicken and in the evening before my meal of mainly hamburger and cheese sometimes lettuce for my bread substitute and I felt better and could tell i was in the Ketosis state now and I have the metallic taste and smell things differently and my weight loss picked up , it is hard to find time to cook with high fats but this seems to work for me. I wonder if it is bad to eat the coconut oil straight.


(Susan) #18

I think that is perfectly fine =). I prefer eating the solid kind rather then the liquid form when doing that personally. I make fat bombs with only coconut oil, cream cheese and an extract (lemon, orange or peppermint) no added sweeteners and almost totally fat. I eat one or two of them for a desert and that helps increase my fats too =). I freeze them in silicone trays and put them in an air tight container when frozen. They are a treat to me, but low carb and high fat.


(Empress of the Unexpected) #19

It’s so hot here, our solid form is liquid!


(Susan) #20

We have central air in the house, so that helps. Hubby and the kids come in complaining how hot it is outside though.