Anxiety and Keto and Serotonin

#1

One of my friends who is not on any medication and has been keto for many months has noticed that she can never seem to relax. She does lazy keto and has not fasted in a while either. We were talking about it the other day. The minute one crisis resolves she seems to get anxious about something else. We are talking in general about first world problems, and it almost seems like she is finding things to worry about. She said when she first went keto it was the opposite. Her boss was annoying her and she was able to take it in stride in a way that she normally could not have. This seemed to last for about the first 8 months of keto. Since then she feels more anxious and always seems to find something to worry about even when there is nothing of consequence happening. At first I figured it was just her, but then I was reading something on Amazon about the Serotonin Power Diet. While I can feel my sugar rising reading the description, the book is based on some research from MIT claiming that you need a small amount of carbs in order to get serotonin levels in the brain up and without that you will have anxiety and overeating.

My question is does being keto in some people increase anxiety due to a drop in serotonin? If the answer is yes, what can you do about it short of eating a slice of bread before lunch and dinner (which is what the book recommends). I realize the board is full of people who cured their anxiety and depression and other similar issues through keto and fasting but it really may be having the opposite effect on my friend, or at least so she is starting to think

On another website someone suggested Garcinia as a natural mood enhancer

Thoughts?

(Brandy) #2

A ketogenic diet and fasting improved my depression and anxiety to the point that I am completely unmedicated and without symptoms. Well, I do have some moments of anxiety, but they are isolated to the week before my menstrual cycle begins. In order to deal with those incidents, I complete a rigorous cardio session each morning and it keeps it at bay. In addition to my dietary changes however, I take a methylated B12 & methylated folate (b9) combo every single morning, as well as a dose of CBD oil, even if I’m fasting. I give almost equal credit to this regimen as I do my diet, at least in terms of my mental health. See if she’ll consider investigating her body’s ability to access important nutrients. With all of that said, I would strongly advise working with a good doc on that front. Too much can also have an adverse effect and actually increase anxiety. We’re such complex systems- one person’s perfect cocktail is another’s downfall. But regarding the cardio, it helps everyone!

(Full Metal KETO AF) #3

I would suggest backing off on media consumption and adopting a healthy feel good regimen. Things she enjoys. Listening to music, gardening, doing a home project she’s been thinking about or putting off, doing a hobby, nice long walks in a peaceful setting, exercise, reading a good book, learning to cook some new food, volunteer, or anything other than following the news for her own wellbeing.

The world won’t end if she isn’t up on the latest injustices, mass shooting, or gruesome crime. It will continue without her mental investment in the crappy world we live in. I had to do this myself a while back when I was in the habit of leaving my TV streaming news all morning. I realized that I was in a constant state of anger and agitation and started to become depressed about the world and how it seems to be getting worse by the day.

But the truth is that misery, horror and depravity sell and good news doesn’t. Before the internet and television it took time for news to get around. Only the top stories made it out of local news. Now we find out about a bombing in Paris before the smoke clears. More people, more crime. It’s depressing. So don’t get sucked into it. Life is stressful enough without constantly absorbing all the misery of the world everyday. Focus on your life, and your friends, your family, and your community.

I hope she gets better, I would no be quick to blame this on KETO, like @Wahinewanders I had great improvements with anxiety and depression when I went KETO 11 months ago, it was like a light switch flipped for me after the first week. I’m also a nicer person to be around now. :cowboy_hat_face:

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #4

Short answer: No, you don’t.

Longer answer: Your metabolism synthesizes all the glucose you need via gluconeogenesis. You do not have to eat it. There are essential fatty acids and amino acids (protein). There are NO essential carbohydrates. None. Nada. Zip. Zilch. Zero. Anyone who says different doesn’t know what they’re talking about, even if they’re at MIT. So your friend’s problem is not lack of carbs.

#5

Thank you for all the replies.

I will suggest CBD oil. Are there particular brands? As for Vitamin B, she knows she does not have the MTHFR mutation that requires methylated vitamins (was tested years ago). Regular B vitamins make her nauseous. She does eat some brazil nuts every week and gets plenty of greens and red meat. She sometimes adds brewers yeast to her diet which has Vitamin B, especially during mosquito season. Neither of us is a big fan of conventional medicine. Normally exercise does help her but lately it does not seem to be.

@David_Stilley she does not follow news. Her world is a nice place bounded by her husband and children and work she enjoys. It is an excellent point and I could definitely see how this could be a problem if someone is overdosing on current events. In her case she could not tell you who is the speaker of the house or the secretary of state or where the latest mass shooting occured

@amwassil I absolutely agree with your comment and have said that myself to many people when they say that they must have carbohydrates. Here is an article that explains the concept https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-antidepressant-diet/201008/serotonin-what-it-is-and-why-its-important-weight-loss

However, just as conventional medicine does not know everything, neither do we in the keto world. My friend is generally doing well but there is this anxiety over nothing that she keeps having. She is not hungry, and while she is not losing anymore she did have good weight loss and maintains it effortlessly and never binges and rarely cheats. Yes she does not need carbs to survive but maybe she needs higher levels of serotonin in order to thrive. Here is my hypothesis as a lay person with no medical or scientific training (so talking out of my A** here). Some carbaholics (which she was) are probably unconciously self medicating reduced levels of serotonin. That is why she gained weight and why she loved carbs. Why she did well on her first months on keto and reduced her anxiety I have no idea, but perhaps after really adapting to keto everything readjusted and now her serotonin levels are back down to where they used to be except since she is no longer addicted to carbs, she cannot and will not use them to alleviate anxiety

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #6

If your friend is lacking in serotonin, perhaps she could try eating food with more tryptophan in it. Robert Lustig explains, in The Hacking of the American Mind, that the precursor to serotonin is tryptophan. Serotonin cannot cross the blood-brain barrier, but tryptophan can, so all the brain’s serotonin must be made in the brain. The problem is that serotonin is a highly useful hormone throughout the body, so a lot of the tryptophan we eat gets grabbed before it makes its way to the brain. Increasing it in the diet, however, can give the brain a chance at getting enough tryptophan to make an adequate supply of serotonin.

In some people, however, the mechanisms that regulate serotonin in the brain are simply out of whack, and such people my have to take a serotonin reuptake inhibitor in order to have an acceptable level of serotonin in their brain.

My understanding, according to a psychologist I once knew, is that all many people’s brains need is a chemical assist for a year or two, and then they are back on track, producing and regulating serotonin properly. Other people, however, may need the assistance of the drug on a long-term basis. Many people on keto find that their serotonin regulation improves greatly, but it’s not true for all.

#7

Thank you Paul. I will look into the book. In the book I was talking about they said something similar. That tryptophan is blocked but they claim that a small amount of carb eaten before the meal releases it, from the article I referenced in Psychology Today

More than 30 years ago, extensive studies at MIT carried out by Richard Wurtman, M.D., showed that tryptophan, the building block of serotonin, could get into the brain only after sweet or starchy carbohydrates were eaten. Although tryptophan is an amino acid and found in all protein, eating protein prevents tryptophan from passing through a barrier from the blood into the brain. The reason is simply numbers: Tryptophan competes for an entry point into the brain with some other amino acids. There are more of those other amino acids in the blood than tryptophan after protein is eaten. So in the competition to get into the brain, tryptophan is at a total disadvantage and very little gets in after a protein meal like turkey or snack like yogurt.

But carbohydrates tip the odds in tryptophan’s favor. All carbohydrates (except fruit) are digested to glucose in the intestinal tract. When glucose enters the bloodstream, insulin is released and pushes nutrients such as amino acids into the cells of the heart, liver and other organs. As it does this, tryptophan stays behind in the bloodstream. Now there is more tryptophan in the blood than the competing amino acids. As the blood passes by the barrier into the brain, tryptophan can get in. The tryptophan is immediately converted to serotonin, and the soothing and appetite controlling effects of this brain chemical are soon felt

I have no idea who is right. This seems to be saying that although tryptophan is important, it is regulated by insulin and you need insulin to allow tryptophan to enter the brain. In thinking about it, since insulin is also triggered by protein and by protein and carbs in combination, why would you need a carbs by themselves. I also think that for anyone who is prediabetic or worse, this is simply not an option

I have a feeling there is a step they are missing but since no one really understands everything every hormone does, this is not a surprise

My friend has never experienced as much anxiety over nothing as she has in the last 6 months. Part of that was legitimate anxiety, kids at school etc, husband was waiting on something at work, boss was a pain but all of that has resolved and she is still anxious. For example her boss was transferred and her new boss is someone she really likes and is great. So now she is worrying about something else completely unrelated

(Kerin ) #8

There is also an OTC supplement called HTP which has the effect of tryptophan.
I believe there is always a good reason for anxiety, it is there for our survival from our ancestors.
Even in our modern era, we are still human and have reason for instinct.
Tell your friend to take some time and really do some homework, financially, relatives, long needed repairs, car inspection, etc. Redo the resume and look for employment opportunities just for the fun of it, but quietly, to see what is out there.
All that is mind over matter.

(squirrel-kissing paper tamer) #9

There’s something to be said for behavioral anxiety. If cognitive behavioral therapy can help us alleviate anxiety, so can certain behaviors promote it. If she already had the mental pathways for anxiety and then it was triggered or exacerbated by life events, she may just be having a hard time turning it off. Nothing necessarily to do with carbs, except that they may be a comfort to her, but she could seek comfort in healthier ways. Although, admittedly, I have read something about carbs/sleep/serotonin but it was 20 years ago and I don’t remember the book.

She sounds like someone who is already half way there (limited media, good support system). Is she doing anything outside of diet/supplements to manage it?

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #10
(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #11
(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #12
#13

Did she start taking collagen supplements by any chance? They can cause anxiety for people & are pretty commonly used in the keto community.

#14

Not collagen but glycine this was the friend I was talking about here

She stopped after I posted that so it has been about a year

@amwassil enjoyed the articles especially the first. Makes me go off on the biome connection

Will suggest 5HTP

She has been doing lazy keto makes me wonder if instead of adding carbs she should be doing stricter keto. If she is low carb but not in ketosis, then low serotonin may be a problem and she does not have the benefit of ketones which have benefits in terms of mood