Another interesting article from Gary Taubes plus a NinaT guidelines update


(Alec) #41

GaryTs new piece. He is too polite to say it, but I will: they are cheating.

I tried to copy paste it to here but it’s too long.
Gary’s last paragraph ie his conclusion is this:

With this circular logic, the USDA methodology assured that the DGAs would never conclude that meats, processed meats and high-fat dairy might be beneficial. With this logic, the DGAs will give us variations on mostly plants to all plants so long as there are DGAs.


(KM) #42

What Taubes is basically pointing out is that when you categorize in a way that lumps confounding variables together, it can allow for an extremely self-serving analysis.

“Avoid meat and sugar” … Ok, so which one is the culprit??

People who eat the diet that the DGA recommends are the same people doing a lot of other health-recommended behaviors. Exercising, not smoking, avoiding excessive alcohol and processed foods and so on and on. Something is indeed making them healthier. Is it eating plants / the diet that the DGA recommends? There is no empirical testing of that hypothesis by the DGA, just the rather dodgy assumption that it is true. As Taubes points out, they are healthier, but perhaps they would be healthier still if they indulged in a diet of beef butter and eggs.


(Doug) #43

Most definitely. :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye::smile:


(Alec) #44

And it is totally deliberate. They have an agenda and are playing all the cards they have available. What they are doing is cheating…. With appalling health consequences for the population. It is evil.


(KM) #45

I also liked his subtle scolding; perhaps at some point when people given your advice are getting sicker, it’s not only appropriate but the only ethical choice to question whether it’s your advice that’s the problem, not their level of obedience to it. That, just maybe, it’s time to test the advice rather than doubling down on it.


#46

Indeed. That’s why I totally believe if a study says vegetarians are healthier. Not because they don’t eat meat but because they tend to be more weight- and maybe health-conscious (and more female so they go to the doctor earlier etc.) and it includes a lot of actually good choices. And skipping meat shouldn’t do much harm for most anyway as long as they don’t do stupid dietary choices. It’s a bad idea for some though.

Grouping wildly different things together and not studying what would happen if they aren’t together is pretty bad. Meat and dairy (proper one. low-fat dairy is an unnatural abomination except a few items like quark. there is no fatty quark) are traditional items, nothing like sugary, highly processed modern things with weird ingredients… Sugary is already problematic even if it’s traditionally and even natural but humans made worse things.

Isn’t it wildly known that if there are many factors, it’s best to test things individually…? If we change multiple factors just in the food and we study health where even food is only one (very important) factor, we probably don’t get very useful information…

It was a good read and when I wondered about the adherence, I got data for it! As if the people don’t follow the advice, they getting sicker say nothing about the advice… And I was always curious. I know my country on average totally doesn’t follow the advice regarding fat and calories, among other things. People are often short term hedonists anyway, with low health-consciousness. Tasty and convenient (and the food being in front of us) often beats healthy if there is a conflict. I don’t know the percentages though… But many Hungarians drink toxin galore and smoke so why would be food healthiness important for them… I can imagine that combo but I still am pretty sure that alcoholics usually aren’t particularly health conscious.


(Bob M) #47

It’s the people themselves that are making themselves healthier. They are likely richer, have more time to exercise, buy fancy foods, drink less, etc.

I saw someone post about hot dogs and how they raised your chance of getting cancer. It’s highly unlikely that if you ate a great diet, exercised, didn’t drink, and your only vice was eating hot dogs every day, that you’d get cancer. Why do those people who have the temerity to admit that they eat hot dogs a lot get cancer? Because that’s one of the foods they can afford, so they eat it a lot. But they probably eat a ton of cheap junk food too.

I did think Taubes was at the top of his game with his last post. He’s so well spoken and clear, and he thinks differently. This idea of they are just going to create a diet that’s “good”, and put everything else into the “bad” is a masterstroke of realization. You can just put “red meat” and “processed meat” into the “bad” diet, and there’s no way to disambiguate these from what’s likely actually the “bad” food.


#48

Oh yeah, money. I doubt it has a very big impact on health consciousness though it depends I suppose. If one is EXTREMELY poor, of course it’s a problem but if one have the income of half a minimage wage in a not 1st world country, one may eat pretty well then (it gets WAY harder with health problem and when the body doesn’t accept cheap but decent food or if one has lots of other costs). I am very poor and the healthier my diet, the cheapest it gets, interestingly, to some extent, at least, of course I could use unnecessarily* good quality meats and they are much more expensive but availability and convenience comes into the way even more than money.
*I mean, I doubt it would change my health noticeably… It may not be true for other people but I am pretty healthy and lucky, mere supermarket meat works and I am fine with zero ruminant meat (it’s luxury, even the cheapest cuts but I still eat a bit here and then. variety is nice. I rather skip the coffee, not like it goes well but I do try… I am not poor enough to stop it, apparently. or not overeating at least occasionally).

Money is rarely the problem as I see (sure, it is for masses but in a not very poor, undeveloped country, most people could eat LOADS better). Normal poor people make horrible financial choices even when it comes to food. It may be very hard to lose weight, I know that, it’s even worse if one is ignorant or doesn’t care enough to do their homework but I still wouldn’t blame money in most cases. Homemade and simple food is the cheapest, almost always. And why to spend money on useless things like added sugar all the time? It just costs money (more than the sugar itself, in many cases and I don’t even think about health costs, just the extra food it brings) and does harm, no good. Except if the sugary sweetness saves someone from depression or suicide but I doubt it happens and it shouldn’t… Coping with food is usually not the best.

At least they are related… I consider both good if the ingredients are right… And there are amounts. I wouldn’t depend on processed meat items but eating them every day sounds a great idea to me personally. Unless I manage to eat enough normal meat, I usually get bored while hungry… Can’t see anything wrong with a little, good sausage! :slight_smile: The worse stuff with too much plastic on it? (I am garbage conscious. If we have more garbage than the 1/30th of the allowed, we are bad, it’s already very much… Half of it was eggshells in the past :smiley: ) Yeah, I avoid those.
BUT I avoid a lot of things. A little deli meat here and there probably wouldn’t make one very sick if everything else would be mostly okay… Things may add up though… I like to find my most problematic points instead of sacrificing something nice and mostly harmless. It’s plant carbs for me. Some are fine but it’s easier to slip if I don’t keep them really low. So it’s good to be stricter than necessary for health if we only consider the item and not what it may do to our decisions a bit later… I think about this a lot when I read “enabler” articles (you know, the ones talking about a healthy diet but mentioning a lot that adding anything we really like in moderation or just sometimes is fine, possibly very much needed for our sanity… and of course, we can’t just go to a party without eating sugary treats and drinking sugary drinks, it’s life…). It sounds too bad as it may be perfect for many. And totally not for others. I am all for doing things the strictest where it’s still fine and enjoyable. Sometimes stricter than that, for training or when it’s very needed for health, we can’t just prioritize short term enjoyment (it’s not the best idea anyway. a proper hedonist doesn’t make themselves suffer later even if it’s not horrible for their health yet). I understand most of us aren’t that great, it’s just the plan. My plan doesn’t involve deliberately going off a bit all the time (I easily make mistakes too often without a bad basic attitude, thank you very much), those articles aren’t for me (and they advise a very different diet than what I would enjoy anyway).

The dietary guides aren’t enablers at all. It seems to me they expect the impossible (for many of us, at least) and the wrong (I wonder if I can find a better one for some countries).
“Most calories from carbs” never was even remotely possible for me as carbs trigger irresistible, very strong fat craving in my case, no matter if I already overate or not, fat MUST come. It was a good guide for me when I finally stopped and started to think and saw that there is something beyond HCHF (everyone I knew ate like that, I had no idea and never stopped to think about it for decades). We are different, we can’t all find our happiness eating One True Healthy Diet, such a thing doesn’t exist. It’s bad that the advised one is very wrong but expecting everyone doing keto would be wrong too especially if it was one specific style. It’s important that we have different needs, circumstances, priorities, sensitivities…etc. We all need enough fat and protein, all kinds of essential nutrients but it doesn’t need we should eat the same diet. I never saw acknowledging this fact in dietary guidelines.


(Bob M) #49

What I have seen for “processed meat” is that the definition can change depending on the study. For one study I read, “normal” sausage was “processed” because it had added salt or fat. To me, raw meat + salt + spices/herbs isn’t “processed”, because all the meat I eat has at least salt added to it. I just don’t stuff it into a shape.

The other issue is that I’ve seen studies where they throw “processed meat” into a category with tons of processed food. And then what happens is they tell you how bad “processed meat” is, when it’s the category that includes “processed meat”, and not necessarily the “processed meat” itself, that’s bad.

This is what I think Gary Taube’s point was: if you stick meat or processed meat into one group that has sugar and actual processed foods, you then can demonize meat/processed meat without actually doing studies on meat/processed meat.

I knew they were doing something like this, but Gary Taubes crystalizes it in a better manner.


(Bob M) #50

Another thing Gary Taubes says is that the “good” diet contains polyunsaturated fats (polyunsaturated fatty acids, PUFAs). Basically all the information that I see for PUFAs, where the PUFAs are actually tested, shows that they are problematic. But because there’s a group of people who (say they) eat PUFAs, then PUFAs are assumed to be good, no tests needed.

What if you did a trial where a group ate a low PUFA but “good” diet, and a high PUFA but “good” diet? What would happen? We’ll never know.


#51

I have a friend like that. Thin, athletic, active, balanced diet focused on vegetables, fish, and whole grains with limited meat. I recently had a discussion with her where I was trying to explain that not everyone has the tools to be thin and even those with the tools are still battling genetics and metabolism. I also explained how I do not agree with many guidelines. The funny part is, her DH is somewhat overweight (I would put him at a BMI of 32 or so). He is sedertary by nature and his family tends to gain weight more easily. She pushes him to be active and to eat healthy. They spend a lot of time together so if he was going out for Big Macs, she would know it so most likely they eat the same foods or at least have access to the same since they cook. What I did not think to say at the time is if food is the answer why isnt your DH at his ideal weight? (I would never)

In any case it turns out she needs to be on a cholesterol medication. She got a calcium blockage test before she went on it and her score was elevated.The blockage was in the LAD which is dangerous.I was shocked about the blockage considering she is a model for clean living.

I have another friend who I see periodically who is the model for unhealthy. She has a BMI of 35. We are about the same age and honestly she looks like she could be my mother (and I more or less look my age). She tends to gain weight. Has lost 100 lbs on various yoyo diets over the years and regained it and then some. She has been a vegetarian for 5 years or so because she claims meat makes her uncomfortable physically. I leave her alone, smile and nod and do not bother. I keep hoping I will lose enough weight and keep it off that I can be an example and she will ask me but I doubt it will happen


(Alec) #52

“Healthy whole grains” (ie eating sugar) will do that.


(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #53

A good recommendation is the old adage to chew each mouthful 50 times before swallowing. I find that a good definition of processed food is food that it doesn’t last in the mouth long enough to chew that many times, whereas real food lends itself to that advice. Thorough chewing is known to have good digestive benefits, because it gives the enzymes in our saliva a good chance to start the digestive process and gives the stomach juices more surface area to work on.


(KM) #54

Dinner tonight was scrambled eggs. I don’t think I could chew that 50 times if you paid me. But the bacon … Yes, I certainly had to extract every bit of bacony goodness before I let that go down my throat!


#55

Even if food is the answer (and it’s important but just a part of it), the amount matters a lot. And of course, we humans have very different ideal diets. I tend to seriously overeat on the wrong one. Not like the balanced carby one of your friend as it sounds HCLF so it would be impossible for me, My old HCHF, that was guaranteed overeating every day. My SO used it for quick, smooth fat-loss but he is willing to do hard things for his figure.

It was some Victorian diet but even that was less I think, maybe 32?
Totally crazy to me, I would swallow after 3 even if I focused… :smiley: Unless it’s really chewy but that just makes my jaw tired, I like chewy food in moderation but that’s it. Well I surely would eat very little using only chewy food so I would slim down I suppose but how unhealthy (mostly mentally. I still would eat enough meat to get enough nutrients to be fine short term) would that be…
I may not chew my food enough, sometimes it’s clearly the case. But normally I am probably fine. Never counted the chewing so maybe it’s not 3 and depends on the food anyway. A huge part of my food doesn’t need much chewing if any. And I liberally use the knife for my meat…

Maybe I will a bit more mindfully chew away today and think about it more!

Yeah, it was one food not needing much chewing I have just thought about… But I eat yogurt and butter too…
I won’t chew my bacon at all today (I make scrambled eggs with bacon) as I have tiny squares (same taste, half price, good in my scrambled eggs and surely in meatballs too… I will use it when I run out of lovely, almost melting soft smoked pork skin), fried they are about 1mm each (truly). My SO looks at them with disdain and doesn’t use them. Oh well.


#56

Me too. I don´t even watch TV now. Can´t stand audio books.

New finnish “guidelines” are just as mad. We are following the same industries.

The other day I read in the news about “cheap and healthy vitamin bombs that every kitchen has : Potatoes,pasta and rice!”

Thanks for the article -Willet is famous in Finland,too.


#57

WHAT. I thought it’s the usual, vegs and fruits, I wouldn’t even be upset (I just don’t like when they are pushed way too much as perfect vital health food we just MUST eat 5 times every day in all the colors of the rainbow)…
I suppose almost everything has vitamins but choosing these, oh my. I am not that ignorant, am I? They aren’t secretly super nutritious, right? :smiley:
My vitamin bombs are pork and eggs. And liver is kinda overkill at Vitamin A but occasionally quite fine.
If pasta and rice are vitamin bombs, what isn’t? Pure sugar and oil?


#58

Don’t forget the arsenic content of some types of rice

Even if food is the answer (and it’s important but just a part of it), the amount matters a lot.

The point is, her diet works for her (other than the whole blockage thing which shocked me) because she is naturally thin and active. Her husband is eating the same food and not doing as well. If this food was good at regulating weight, he would be at a better weight. If he was eating food that satiated him, such as low carb, he could eat as much as he needed and would naturally stop. He happens to come from a family where they all love fat and protein and animal products. She comes from a family that buys into the current guidelines. She does not question and eats her whole grains.

Now she has to go on medication despite being thin and athletic


#59

Oh my. I never heard about that one…

Not so surprising, being thin and athletic doesn’t mean being healthy. We can do our best at some areas but there are genetics and a ton of other things we can’t do much about. Of course our diet is a very important factor and too bad many people have no idea what is good for them and many seem uncaring anyway.

Eating satiating low-carb food isn’t always enough, sadly, this can be more complex for some of us. I feel my overeating past stayed with me though I made big improvements during the last 1.5 decades. And not everyone can restrict themselves severely enough. And again, there are those other, non-dietary factors, not just for health but even for fat-loss, people say. I seem to be simpler but I have very little experience with fat-loss and many years passed from the last time… Oh yes, that is a factor too, some years pass and our own body isn’t the same, apparently…

Between your thin friend and her husband there must be quite a few differences so one can’t expect the same from the same diet even if it suits both of them.


(KM) #60

Are you sure it’s working for her? Sounds like potentially a TOFI.