Am I keto or am i low carb?

(Ludmila Block) #1

what exactly defines ketogenic diet? Everywhere i look, it’s defined by 20 grams net carbs, or in terms of percentages of fat and carb calories. But what if i’m able to be in ketosis with much higher number of carbs? am i not doing a ketogenic diet? for example the other day, my net carbs at the end of the day were 60! and total carbs 150 (lots of fiber, some of which from inulin sweetened keto desserts). That’s was more carbs than i usually eat (normally stay under 50), and i was worried that i was kicked out of ketosis. BUT my blood ketones at the end of the day (2 hrs after my last meal) were still 0.8.
Am i allowed to say that i’m doing ketogenic diet, or am i just doing Low Carb?

(Dena) #2

I would like to know the answer to this too!

#3

My understanding is ketogenic diet is a way of eating which helps your body transition from burning sugar to burning fat for fuel. It does occur over varying lengths of time when one cuts carbs and adds fat instead (as in butter, bacon, coconut oil, heavy cream,etc.) The older Atkins diet put the induction phase limit at 19 grams of carbs for the first 2 weeks, or longer as needed.
So, you may well be able to show ketones on a ketone stick or meter with up to 150 g carbs but that is very individual. My goal is not to ‘show ketones’ but to become fat adapted which may or may not happen while showing positive for ketones. My carbs per day at month 3 are still under 15 g, – we’re all different. Don’t worry about “kicking out of ketosis”… I’ll stop there, you’ll want to feel that you are saying what is honest according to what you believe. Good wishes!

(TJ Borden) #4

First, Keto and Low Carb aren’t mutually exclusive. You can be low carb without being keto, but unless you’re in ketosis because of extended fasting or starvation, it’s not likely you’re in ketosis without being low carb.

Second, and to answer your question: A ketogenic diet is way of eating that causes you to burn fat for energy and puts you in a state of nutritional ketosis. It does NOT have a specific carb total. 20 grams is the general rule because unless your metabolism is especially fucked up, 20 grams or less will ensure you reach and maintain a ketogenic state.

Dr Phinney has even said that many people on a ketogenic diet can eat upto 100 grams a day and maintain a state of ketosis.

The level of carbs for each individual depends on their personal tolerance that allows them to stay in ketosis, and their personal goals. For myself, I try limit my carbs to incidental only (generally 10 or less a day) because I’m trying to reverse T2D and insulin resistance.

If you can consume more than 20 grams, stay in ketosis, and make progress towards your personal goals, then good for you… although many here will be very jealous. :grin:

(Ludmila Block) #5

thanks for your reply. yes, i guess i’m lucky to be able to stay in ketosis on 50 gram net carbs. don’t mean to make anyone jealous :slight_smile: but while i am staying in ketosis with higher carbs, I however am NOT losing any weight, so i can’t really say i’m progressing toward my goal. I should probably take up some for of exercise.

(TJ Borden) #6

There can be many factors that affect weight loss, but I would try lowering your carb total to see if that helps. I’m not going to say exercise is bad for you, but I would focus on adjusting tour food intake to start dropping pounds. Looking to exercise to help you lose seems like it gets back to a CICO mindset and isn’t going to mesh well with a keto WOE.

#7

Well, it’s about body recomposition as much or more than it is about weight. Atrophied muscle tissue restoring, hidden visceral fat/intra-abdominal fat that is wrapped around major organs transforming and shrinking, cellular rejuvenation, blood levels of this n’ that. Not to mention the brain nutrition enhancing all sorts of neural functioning in the gut, and the microbiome changes.

Are you measuring your body every few weeks? Scales do not tell the truth when it comes to muscle/fat ratio - measurements do.

The morbidly obese & obese are are ones to drop actual “weight” in a dramatic way on keto (and males faster than females). Midlife and post-menopausal women are the slowest for lypolysis apparently, nature’s way of ensuring survival of grandmothers due to some cardiac benefits of certain female fat!

Resistance weights/strength-training can be amazing for all ages - due to its speeding of metabolic healing and muscle repair, however not without effort and bouts of delayed muscle soreness and all that :wink: I highly recommend LCHF/keto Fred Hahn’s Slow Burn Fitness Revolution for a handy home practice guide just with dumbbells and ankle weights - in the very slow and intense style of training. It’s mind-clearing and meditative. And it can actually speed muscle growth & metabolic restoration - which for some of us who are not obese means a few more pounds on the scale, not less. The weight training is like a leveraging too - very strategic. Diet is 99% of muscle health & development, but the 1% that is strength training is a very influential and rejuvenating force multiplier.

I also do well with 9 months in to keto at around 100 gr. total carbs per day - and am not sure if it’s mediated by the fact that I do IF 2-3 days a week and/or supplementing with Ginger capsules (incredibly beneficient for digestion, cortisol-reduction and thus belly fat reduction, circulation, and a bunch of other things). I’ve been taking it regularly for… about 3 months now… and my belly fat is noticeably changing (which is practically miraculous when you’re midlife!) I stuck to 20 gr net the first month, then stayed around 30 gr net for a few months before getting bolder w/ my experiment! Am chronologically 52, and may find myself back to the body that was my leanest, in another season or two! It’s an adventure :smiley:

(Marie Dantoni) #8

I was at a plateau for some time when I tried an “eat to satiety/intuitive eating” test. As a result, I gained 9 lbs. in about 2 months. I decided to tweak the carbs up to 50g, add a half hour of resistance and cardio daily and track everything. I am also doing 19/5 and usually keep energy below 1,500 calories… without deprivation. I eat 2 meals daily…one under 5 g of carb and the other meal with most of the carbs. This is working very well. I have been seeing weight loss, and my appetite is satisfied.
I am 67 years of age. I am not diabetic, but was in the pre-diabetic zone when I last started LC and keto. I don’t test ketones, but I feel good and I’m finally getting the results I’m after…at least for now. No two snowflakes…

(Diane) #9

@SlowBurnMary

Thanks for this information. I’m going to try supplementing with ginger capsules. How much are you taking?

(GINA ) #10

A ketogenic diet is a diet that puts a body into ketosis. Whatever macros it takes to happen for you is your ketogenic diet.

The “internet” will try to tell you it is a lot of different things, and there are situations that call for different tweaks to the definition. People controlling epilepsy need a certain level of ketones. People trying to control cancer need a certain level of ketones coupled with a very low blood sugar level.

IMO, a lot of the hype around “keto” is just a rebranding to sell more books and plans. How many low carb books can the world support after Atkins wrote the bible? Each one tries to have some new twist, and the first chapter is usually dedicated to how THIS version of low carb is different from Atkins. Whatever. It is helping low carb to become more mainstream. Young gym-going people can follow “keto” without realizing they are following essentially the same diet Great Aunt Alice used to lose 40 lbs in 1972.

(Ludmila Block) #11

Hi SlowBurnMary, Thanks for your info.
Fred Hahn’s Slow Burn - is than an exercise video or an app? where do I get it?
Also very interested in the ginger supplement info - is it a certain kind, or any ginger will do? what’s the dose you’re using.?
I also need to get back to IF. how long do you fast for? I was doing alternate day fasting, which is how i lost 70 lbs. and i have been maintaining this loss for about a year and a half now. I really want to drop 10 more lbs of fat, and build some muscle while at it. I just recently did a DEXA scan and while my numbers are all in a “healthy range” they’re definitely not optimal. i need to increase my muscle mass and bone density while dropping a few more pounds of belly fat :slight_smile:
as for the macros i guess i’ll stay with the higher carbs because obviously i can handle it. when i tried to do the 20 g net, i was miserable. and didn’t last long. 50 g is more sustainable for me, and that’s what counts - to be able to stay with it for the long haul. I’m also getting up there chronologically not too far behind you. so i know the fat loss will be slower. but that’s not my primary goal anyway (my weight loss has already surpassed all my expectations). my main focus right now is general health. but if the ginger supplementation can help get some of the belly fat off - that would be a great big bonus.

(Ludmila Block) #12

i agree, “eating to satiety” is not for everyone. certainly not for me. I do not agree with the idea of “eat fat to satiety (while low carb) and don’t worry about calories”. While calories is not the only thing that matters - hormones do come into play - still i believe the calorie deficit is a MAJOR factor in weight loss. When it comes to CICO vs Hormonal theory of weight control - i think both are true, and no reason they should be mutually exclusive. i’m glad you found what works for you. sounds like a great plan.

(TJ Borden) #13

If not fat to satiety, then what? The reason I ask is because the “idea” you’re disagreeing with is one of the cores of keto.

(Ludmila Block) #14

my disagreement is not with eating FAT to satiety. but rather eating fat (or anything) to SATIETY. for some, satiety may never come or, might take longer to “register” which results in overeating and an excess of total calories consumed which leads to weight gain. I eat until i hit my macros limit. then I put a “hard stop” to my eating, even if i’m not “satiated”.

(TJ Borden) #15

There is no macro limit on fat. That again suggests you’re still concerned about calories. Id you don’t eat to satiety and just stop based on arbitrary macro numbers some calculator has told you are your targets, then you are restricting calories and if you do that long enough, your metabolism will slow to match what you’re taking in. That will probably help with not being as hungry, but its certainly not optimal for burning fat.

If once you hit you targets for carbs and protein (which seems funny because I don’t really believe carbs should be a “target”, just a max), then you probably aren’t getting enough fat. It’s also possible that your carb intake is too high.

You may have found a level that is allowing you to remain in ketosis but preventing you from becoming fat adapted. It’s possible the “hunger” is actually carb cravings.

(Ludmila Block) #16

yes, i am still concerned about calories because despite everything, i still believe (as evident from my personal experience) there has to be a calorie deficit for weight loss. i did lose 70 lbs before i even heard of ketogenic diet. i did it by creating a calorie deficit by the means of intermittent fasting where i would eat one small meal (500 calories) every other day, and eat normally the rest of the time, carbs and all.
i have not lost anything, and even gained a few lbs, since starting the ketogenic (or LCHF diet). It doesn’t work for me as a weight loss tool (without restricting calories)
but… you may be right about me not being fat adapted because of higher carb intake despite me being able to be in ketosis. Question is - is it possible to become fat adapted at higher level of carbs, is it just going to take longer or will it never happen? How do you know when you’re fat adapted?
as for my hunger being a carb craving - i think not. For me its more of “emotional hunger”. Some of us have a complicated relationship with food, which will not be fixed by more fat. maybe meditation, or therapy :slight_smile:

(Banting & Yudkin & Atkins & Eadeses & Cordain & Taubes & Volek & Naiman & Bikman ) #17

Yeah, I think you need to get back in touch with internal eating cues rather than external. I used to call it my appestat (appetite + thermostat)… when I was grooving, I was in touch, but I had foods that I could overeat, like hotwings and pork chops. But once you have your metabolism in order and you’ve gotten you appestat working, eating to sated, not stuffed is perfectly workable. But you have to do the work before you can freestyle like that, imho.

(Marie Dantoni) #18

We are all here to support each other. I understand how strongly people feel about their positions on this topic, but in the service of shared knowledge and open mindedness
It seems only fair to allow free discussion when it comes to personal experience. From my point of view, there is a big metabolic difference between a young man and an older woman. I have learned that I cannot eat mountains of whipped cream and expect to lose weight. For me that is pretty much a done deal. YMMV and that’s what makes the world go round.

(TJ Borden) #19

Agreed, but by @Ludmila_Block’s own comments, what she’s been doing ISN’T working.

I’m open to other ideas and points of view, if I wasn’t, I probably would have never tried keto to begin with.

I’m not understanding how suggesting ideas that can help someone become fat adapted isn’t supporting somone that is asking about why their current approach isn’t helping them achieve their goals.

(Marie Dantoni) #20

Glad we’re on the same page. Same struggle just different experiences. And, yes, none of
us would be here if we were afraid to go against the rules.