Alternate Day Fasting Effects on Non-Obese Adults

(Central Florida Bob ) #21

Unfortunately, since the majority of the population is either pre-diabetic or diagnosed diabetic, insulin resistant and either overweight or TOFI, I bet there isn’t much interest in that research for insulin-sensitive, lean people.

A common argument to ignore Dr. Fung’s advice about longer fasts is that his patient base is generally pretty sick and people who aren’t that sick are more resilient.

Edit to add I think Dr. Ali in the 2KD podcast was the first physician I heard recommending longer fasts.

(Joey) #22

Picking up on your point, I guess there’s neither interest nor money in finding cures for healthy folks. A solution without a problem. :pleading_face:

Okay, perhaps someday I’ll get motivated enough to do some n=1 experiments that are more directly on the question. Of course, I don’t know how to measure autophagy.

In my own limited experience with keto (10+weeks), here’s an observation…

Prior to keto: With a 24 hr fast, I’d be starving (headache, fatigue, cranky…).
In ketosis: After fasting for 24 hrs I wasn’t quite starving (nor did I suffer any of those pesky symptoms above), but I was hungry enough to be really ready to eat.

Would extending a 24 fast further (alternate day fasting = 36hrs or more?) produce a meaningful boost to (the healthy kind of) autophagy? Probably won’t ever likely know for sure.

But perhaps if I try this out sometime I can judge from how I’m feeling (headache? fatique? cranky?) during a 36hr fast as an indirect marker for how “constructively” my body’s metabolism is dealing with whatever’s going on inside.

Fat-burners with ample excess body fat typically report feeling really great after getting past the first 18 hours of a multi-day fast. That’s probably an indication of something to pay attention to.

#23

IIRC they also had an average BMI of about 25 while mine is only about 19.5 so they did have a bit more wiggle room. I was listening to a bodybuilding podcast where they talked about IF for physique athletes but they went on to clarify that they were actually talking about TRE because your average physique athlete is a lot less keen to skip their protein feeds plus they were doing specifically for fat loss so not much help there either :woman_shrugging:

(Karen) #24

Just listening to a podcast that seemed to suggest that 5-2 might be better in shaking up your body. And that your body might get used to ADF. Listen to it for yourself


Podcast #4 with Dr. Joseph Antoun

(BuckRimfire) #25

I would agree with this. My wife might not. Even though we’ve been low-carb for over a year, she claims she’s a bit hangry during our 33 hour fast days. (But probably nothing like the horror she’d have been before keto!)

One thing about that study is that alternating fasting every day seems pretty aggressive. We’ve been doing fasts on Monday and Thursday for a few weeks. The 5:2 schedule seems pretty popular, and to me, at least, pretty painless, so I’d be really interested in a metabolic ward study that covered it.

Hmm, I keep typing “study” with two Ds. Maybe fasting is hurting my brain. :wink: Not that my typing skills were ever that great…

(Joey) #26

Just curious … do you and your wife have markedly different levels of “excess” body fat? (If you’re not supposed to divulge such info, no worries :wink: )

(BuckRimfire) #27

Yes, she had a little excess weight around the waist, although after losing 30 pounds on keto her BMI is now 22.

I am one of those horrible monsters who can eat almost anything and not gain weight. My BMI has been just under 21 for 20 years. I had a DEXA scan last month and have 13% body fat.

(Joey) #28

With all due respect, there was a poor reaction to that podcast. Many felt that Joseph Antoun was pitching “L-Nutra” (REGISTERED TRADEMARK) which you eat when fasting. I thought fasting was about not eating… not buying stuff from Antoun that you eat on those days when you’re not eating.

In checking out the L-Nutra (REGISTERED TRADEMARK) website, I see Valter Longo is involved - inventor of the Fasting Mimicking Diet®. Uh-oh (see the company’s death warning, copied below, which is aimed specifically at diabetics - both Type 1 or Type 2)

[FWIW, a few days after Episode #4 was posted, the host posted “Apology for Diet Doctor Podcast Episode #4”.]

Below is this WARNING posted on the L-Nutra’s own website. Besides death, apparently their products can cause other “severe problems.” Ooops. On the other hand, you can eat their product under certain conditions, including that you will probably have to agree to be hospitalized in the process.

WARNING RELATED TO OUR RECENT STUDIES ON DIABETES: DO NOT TRY TO APPLY ANY TYPE OF FASTING MIMICKING DIET TO TREAT EITHER TYPE 1 OR TYPE 2 DIABETES ALONE OR EVEN WITH THE HELP OF A DOCTOR. THE COMBINATION OF THE FMD AND INSULIN BUT ALSO OTHER DRUGS COULD CAUSE SEVERE PROBLEMS AND EVEN DEATH. ALTHOUGH THE USE OF THE FMD TO TREAT EITHER TYPE 1 OR 2 DIABETES IS PROMISING, IT MUST BE FIRST TESTED AND PROVEN EFFECTIVE IN FDA CLINICAL TRIALS WHICH WILL PROBABLY REQUIRE HOSPITALIZATION DURING THE TREATMENT.

(Karen) #29

I think he was quoting some studies on the validity of doing 5:2. Whether or not you buy his products would be completely up to you. I’ve looked at his products and besides the expense there doesn’t seem to be much offered there that you could not do on your own. It is his product so I’m not surprised he’s pitching it, I was more interested in his comments with regard to fasting for five days, or shaking it up and do 5:2.

(Joey) #30

Ah, okay. Thanks for that clarification. Sorry if I misunderstood.

I understand Dr Fung has made his support for “mixing things up” from time to time when it come to fasting in a number of different venues. Others have begun to echo this viewpoint - whether independently or because of his advocacy.

Although I do not know if there is any scientific evidence for this Dr Fung has considerable clinical evidence to draw upon. So if anyone can attest to what works in practical terms - absent RCT peer-reviewed proof - it would seem he’d be in a position to offer such guidance.

(Karen) #31

I think Megan Ramos on the same podcast series supports just this, with some strong discussion for alternate day fasting three days a week. She works with Dr. Fung.

(Joey) #32

For those who have thoroughly digested (<< Dad pun) the Phinney/Volek books and research papers, Phinney’s position on fasting as plainly stated here might be of interest: Phinney on Fasting.

Yes, as many here know, Drs. Phinney and Fung don’t see eye-to-eye on this particular topic, although some believe there’s somewhat less disagreement between them than first meets the eye. And yes, I understand this link was provided in the past (by @atomicspacebunny and perhaps others) here on the forum. But I resurrect this link here as being particularly relevant to our thread - especially as it comes from one of the most reliable and trusted sources in the World of Keto.

Keto (and Read) On!

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #33

Never hurts to repost links to articles and studies. Topics slowly fade into oblivion and the links they contain fade with them.

(Bunny) #34

Fung only recommends 24 to 48 hour fasting or so (not being exact), I mean that’s nothing to me,
that would not even be contrary to what Phinney, Volek and the other wonderful folks over at Virta Healths position on fasting and diabetics is?

I think some peeps get carried away with the whole fasting thing though!

For example 48 hours would be my normal eating window, to me that’s not fasting?

Being brainwashed through the last hundred years or so and lead to believe what the definition of fasting truly is or is not, could be the problem?

3 meals a day with highly concentrated carbohydrates? (no wonder everyone is dying of diabetes?)

Who said you or we have to eat three meals a day?

(Joey) #35

@atomicspacebunny When it comes to fasting, sounds like you’re a natural!

My impression of Phinney/Volek’s position is this: There’s no scientific evidence that the metabolic benefits of fasting longer than 24 hours outweigh the metabolic costs. (Therefore, they do not recommend fasting for longer than a day.)

No doubt, I’m oversimplifying… but if, worse yet, I’m misstating their position, then someone please correct me.

(Bunny) #36

I think your logic is correct, you have to adapt to it, the body learns how to manufacture it’s own fuel when it is not being over stuffed with it continually from an external source, it is just a matter of getting out of that dependency on the carbohydrates only for fuel logic?

(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #37

I have maintained for some time that, when we pay attention to what they actually say, Drs. Phinney and Fung are actually not far apart in their recommendations.

(Karen) #38

:arrow_up::arrow_up::arrow_up:This

They are pretty much on the same page.

I still feel pretty hungry when I fast. What about fasting mimicking or is that just reduced calories even if ketogenic?