Allegedly 'temporary' Keto is better

(PJ) #1

Saw this article suggesting keto’s only good temporarily

Short Periods On Keto Diet Provide Best Results, Mice Study Shows

Allegedly based on this study

Ketogenesis activates metabolically protective xx T-cells in visceral adipose tissue

PJ

(mole person) #2

Mouse models are terrible for studying the effects of a ketogenic diet on humans. To get mice in ketosis without starvation you have to feed they a diet so unhealthy to them it’s no wonder they sicken. My understanding is that humans are unique in that they can be in a state of ketosis easily while in the fed state. This is not normal in any other animal eating a healthy species appropriate diet.

(Allie) #3

So I can’t be doing so well being in my sixth year of constant keto then… :joy:

#4

I really hate it when they use mice or other animals and want to compare their results to humans. Human digestion is so different. Just think about how a dog is poisoned by chocolate. And even in humans the digestive system holds so many many variables, so many of which are left unconsidered. Once upon a time there was a study on mice that “proved” that artificial sugars make cancer in mice. Only the dosage they gave the mice would have been as if a human was eating the saccharin by the truckload daily. I wonder about all the “studies” done and most of all- who is paying for them? And why?

(Bunny) #5

Have a peek at this post also:

From your posted article:

“…As reported in Nature Metabolism, the researchers observed that mice put on this keto diet had lower blood sugar levels and inflammation for the first week, as well as burned fat. But after the first week, the fat-loss effect was compensated by natural fat storage[1]. Also of concern was the loss of the protective gamma delta T-cells. …” …More

Then the question becomes are you eating too much dietary fat if you are already over-weight?

On a ketogenic diet we are told to eat dietary fat but the problem with it is people over do it. The dietary fat is an initializer not the panacea? If you are under-weight or want to maintain a certain percentage of body fat, then and only then do you eat more fat?

References:

[1] “…When fats – also known as triglycerides – are consumed, the human body breaks it down to pass it into the blood stream. At that point it is either burned for energy or stored for future use. When fat is ingested, it is stored in fat cells known as adipocytes. …” …More

(Patricia) #6

I’m glad you posted this. I saw it, too, and started to wonder if that is why my weight loss stalled. I’m getting very discouraged and my hunger has returned. Keto is starting to be like any other diet for me. I’m hungry and tired, but still not losing weight. I have no idea what gamma-T cells are, but apparently we don’t want to lose them.

#7

The processes behind when a fat cell actually shrinks (and stops being a ketofied, fat-depleted water balloon/storage cell) are something I’m stymied by - I think it has to do with hormones, and that it basically happens super slow when in high stress circumstances. So, there’s water weight/squishiness, along with dietary fat excess/lack of strength training creating possibly more stagnation.

I’ve also been pondering body fat excretion (which is mostly through breathing out carbon dioxide) as compared with dietary fat excretion or storage.

In a 2016 study using rats fed a high-fat diet, it was found that the crystals of bentonite clay appear to have fat-absorbing characteristics . As a result, more fat passed through the rat’s digestive tract and exited unabsorbed.

Hasn’t been proven out with any human study yet of course. I do find it fascinating about how multi-pronged ancestrally-inclined dietary choices may work together for quicker fat-adapted body recomp ( LCMFP (low carb moderate fat and protein - I just made that up), and strength training, and the use of mineralization via a trace minerals/living clay (bentonite/montmorillite smectite clays) and those found in higher whole food carbs like veg/fruit, combined with fasting to keep the body guessing, etc). Seems like mineralization matters very much!

#8

Unlike blood glucose regulation, which has a minimum concentration, and can be regulated in an almost steady state (constant) as seen in continuous glucose monitoring of carnivore dieters, blood ketones are affected further down stream and can vary widely (depending on the size of the scale on the graph).

So I would posit that even those animals that are in ketosis for the majority of the time are not in constant ketosis and temporarily may not be in ketosis, so would be in temporary keto.

Maybe we are cycling when we didn’t even know we got on the metabolic bicycle?

Those gamma T-cells are interesting immune cells. responsive in a role related to lipids, and I would guess, more than likely the lipid part of the lipopolysaccharide remnants of bacterial cells that can cause inflammation. The visceral fat is also an immune organ, so gut inflammation, comes in to play as much as direct fat storage in terms of the accumulation or loss of visceral fat mass.

(Bunny) #9

Could be because of loss of adequate mucus production or evacuation of dietary sugar dependent mucosal barrier?

Gamma Delta T-Cells: ”…The dominant subset of γδ T cells in human peripheral blood expresses a Vγ9Vδ2-encoded T-cell receptor (TCR), while Vδ1 γδ T cells are more abundant in (mucosal) tissues.15 Both subsets (Vitamin C) can efficiently kill tumor cells and may play a role in antitumor immunity.16 …” …More

I only needed to do this for a week?
(Utility Muffin Research Kitchen) #10

Obviously the results from mice studies should be questioned. And these studies can be rigged very easily (for those of you who aren’t reading hyperlipid, this one is worth checking out).
But your dog analogy is fitting: Some humans are poisoned by chocolate too, as some of us can’t detox oxalates very well (the stuff that kills dogs).

“long-term ad libitum KD feeding in mice causes obesity, impairs metabolic health and depletes the adipose-resident T-cells”.
Yeah, sure. Because keto will cause obesity in humans every single time, right? :slight_smile:

(squirrel-kissing paper tamer) #11

Chocolate contains theobromine (and caffeine) which can cause low blood pressure and work as a stimulant. This is why it’s dangerous for dogs.

(John) #12

I’m at this for about 17 months so far. Seems to be working all right for me. Though I am neither a mouse nor a dog (nor a cat, avatar notwithstanding), so perhaps my results are not applicable for those species.

I also eat chocolate with no apparent negative side effects. Just had a small chunk of 100% cacao unsweetened chocolate with my coffee just now, in fact.

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #13

Species makes a very big difference in what is good or bad to eat. Although chocolate is bad for dogs, owners of pet rats learn that not only is chocolate safe for their beloved rats, but it can also be useful in relieving respiratory stress (theobromine and caffeine, like the prescription methylxanthines, are bronchodilators). So although we can learn a lot from animal models, we need to be careful about applying animal data to human conditions.

The biggest example of this is that our fear of cholesterol is the result of experiments performed on rabbits a century ago, in which the test subjects had to be force-fed quantities of meat. Since rabbits are obligate herbivores, it is no wonder that the cholesterol in their arteries got out of control as a result of such an unnatural diet. We now know that cholesterol plays an important role in repairing arterial damage in human beings, which means that blaming cardiovascular disease on cholesterol is a lot like blaming building fires on fire trucks.

(Bob M) #14

I started 1/1/14. Still going strong. Just got into new pants (size 34 from 43+), had to buy a new winter coat because my other one was huge. Strongest I’ve been since starting. Most muscular since then (nowhere near what I was in my 20s, but I also have two torn rotator cuffs I did not have back then).

Just because you “stall” does not mean the diet is bad. And if you’re hungry, maybe you should eat more?

If you stall, check the following: chicken, bacon/pork, avocados, oils, NUTS, or anything else that’s high PUFA. Don’t eat them, at least temporarily. If you can handle dairy, up your saturated fat content with butter, cream, etc.

(Utility Muffin Research Kitchen) #15

I know the story, but failed to find any references to that experiment. Do you have more insight?

(Bob M) #16

It’s definitely in here:

http://www.ravnskov.nu/cm/

Maybe these:

119] Vastesaeger MM. The contribution of comparative atherosclerosis to the understanding of human atherosclerosis. Journal of Atherosclerosis Research 8, 377-380, 1968.

Stout C, Groover ME. Spontaneous versus experimental atherosclerosis. Annals of the New York Academy of Science 162,89-98, 1969.

Stout LC, Bohorquez MS. Significance of intimal arterial changes in non-human vertebrates. Medical Clinics of North America 58, 245-255, 1974.

Stehbens WE. An appraisal of cholesterol feedings in experimental atherogenesis. Progress of Cardiovascular Research 29, 107-128, 1986.

Stehbens WE. Vascular complications in experimental atherosclerosis. Progress of Cardiovascular Research 29, 221-237, 1986.