Advice on how to ease out of the diet

(Bob M) #21

What evidence?

And I’m saying this too, as it’s been my experience.

#22

What is K?

#23

Exactly. There is no evidence suggesting that, which makes it an unsupported hypothesis.

(Bob M) #24

Ok, this thing is basically useless:

For one, they CALCULATED the amount that was taken in. This is useless. You can’t calculate it, you have to measure it:

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Moreover, they state the following:

Throughout the diet the intakes of magnesium, calcium, iron, phosphorus, and potassium were less than recommended values, but serum levels always remained within the reference range.

If the “serum levels always remained within the reference range”, maybe their calculations are useless?

(Windmill Tilter) #25

I think it’s great that you qualified “insulin resistance” by noting that it was glucose sparing insulin resistance. It confuses the hell out of people when they hear that keto causes “insulin resistance”!

I like the way that Chris Kresser distinguishes between physiological insulin resistance and pathological insulin resistance. The former is a positive adaptation to continual carbohydrate scarcity. The latter is negative, degenerative adaptation to continual carbohydrate overabundance. They are completely opposite things. Calling them the same term confuses the hell out of people! I actually prefer your term “glucose sparing insulin resistance” to Kresser’s term “physiological insulin resistance” because it seems more descriptive.

Anyway, this article was helpful to me to understand what the heck people were talking about when they say “keto causes insulin resistance”, and it describes each type of IR in pretty simple terms:

(Raj Seth) #26

Not dangerous, but medications need to be properly managed.
If trying to exit Keto gives you mental stress, maybe that’s a sign you need to do this to be better :grinning:

#27

Thank you Rajseth

#28

No. As all medical professionals will tell you, the body preserves whatever it has and serum levels remain normal for quite some time.

This is why serum measurements aren’t very good at assessing a deficiency. And when a deficiency can be seen in serum levels, then disease has already set in.

#29

This physiological insulin resistance isn’t necessarily good. It’s all about context.

For diabetics or pre-diabetics that indulge in the occasional treat, this extra insulin resistance means even less tolerance for carbs and a big blood glucose spike that can damage arteries and wreak havoc.

In other words for diabetics the diet requires complete compliance, otherwise it is more dangerous than a diet moderate in carbs.

Also insulin resistance in general does not happen due to exposure to carbohydrates. I know that many in the keto community believe this, but we have no evidence for it.

What we do know is that insulin resistance is an appropriate defensive mechanism for “energy poisoning”, an adypocites dysfunction happening due to tissue exposure to an excess of energy (glucose or fatty acids):

This means that fat consumption can give you insulin resistance:

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1046/j.1365-2362.32.s3.3.x

And also protein isn’t excluded:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/11872656/

Insulin resistance is what happens when the “personal fat threshold” is exceeded, with fat cells becoming too full and less able to store energy – and yes there are thin people with insulin resistance, which happens because they lack the ability to store much subcutaneous fat – if you can’t store that energy excess, you get diabetes:

The good news is that insulin resistance can be reverted by weight loss, which is in fact the only known intervention that can reverse early stage diabetes and weight loss works regardless of macros composition of the diet:

This RCT used a glucose clamp technique, and as far as studies goes it doesn’t get any better than this. This mirrors an earlier study of similar quality:

(Full Metal KETO AF) #30

@fabia Personally I wouldn’t follow the advice of the ADA, they’ve been wrong forever. All these carb recommendations, reeeallly? And giving insulin to T2 diabetics? Reeeallly? Look where their funds come from. Follow the money$$$$$$$$

Also the RDA numbers for micronutrients are a lot of guesses in many cases. If you eat carbohydrates much higher levels of magnesium and vitamin C are required to metabolize them. The RDAs are based on people eating the SAD. Carnivores, especially ones who include organ meats get better bioavailability of those micronutrients than you can from plant foods with phytic acid and oxalates bonding to the nutrients and blocking absorption of much of the minerals. With Carnivore all the micronutrients are bioavailable. Take for instance tofu and spinach eaten together, the oxalates in the spinach block absorption of the iron content. Soy has is own self defeating mechanisms to make eating it a weak source of nutrition including malabsorption of the amino acids. because of protease inhibitors in the soy. This is just one interaction, it has lots of other anti nutrients that react with other foods as well. Anti nutrients are well studied and their effects well known for many years. :cowboy_hat_face:

#31

But @Rajseth ? What happens if you don’t eat enough on the diet? How can it explain my symptoms?

(Edith) #32

Check out diagnosisdiet.com. Dr. Georgia Ede is a psychiatrist who specializes in treating patients with diet.

#33

Thank you so much. Do you know of any others?

(Raj Seth) #34

If you don’t eat enough your body is not getting enough resources. It’s gonna be unhappy. Check out https://www.chrispalmermd.com/
Ketogenic diet for mental issues. He is a psychiatrist talking about therapeutic ketogenic diet for mental issues

#35

I don’t believe in conspiracy theories.

When you’re saying “follow the money”, you’re suggesting that their advice is corrupt. That’s a serious accusation that always needs extraordinary proof.

I see a general tendency to cherry pick recommendations and scientific results whenever it fits people’s worldviews and whenever it doesn’t fit that worldview, the evidence gets dismissed because it is supposedly corrupted by money.

Just to give an example vegans dismiss the studies showing health benefits for dairy or meat consumption because it’s supposedly funded by the dairy and meat industry. So what makes the meat and dairy industry more trustworthy than the sugar industry? Personal preference or do we have a reasonable selection criteria, like science?

What’s missing in this picture for the layman is that physicians and scientists are held to higher standards. You can follow the money because researchers are required to declare any conflicts of interest and everything is published and can be reviewed, like all the methods and the data and if you need to attack the findings of such research, it’s better to attack the science instead of chasing wild horses and resort to ad hominems.

Did you hear the story of Mercola, the “doctor” that earned millions from bullshit wellness products and that funded anti-vax organizations, which ironically point their finger at “big pharma” for their profits?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/2019/10/15/fdc01078-c29c-11e9-b5e4-54aa56d5b7ce_story.html

Somebody always profits from any health or dietary advice and I’d rather them be the licensed and educated professionals that pre-declare their conflicts of interest, instead of the bloggers and the social media personalities with no relevant education and that are not required to declare anything.

No, this is wrong. RDA values are always based on knowledge of human physiology and on studies, those values being picked to prevent disease.

The value for vitamin C for example was picked in order to prevent scurvy. And if that declared value is a little higher than what is required to prevent scurvy, that’s for very good reasons like the body needing a reservoir of vitamin C în case sickness hits. And we know exactly how vitamin C is stored, when it reaches saturation and how much is needed to have some leeway.

And actually if there is any valid criticism for the RDA values is that often they are too low, meant only to prevent disease. Like for example the protein requirements, chosen for keeping nitrogen balance, however those values aren’t optimal for increasing or even keeping a healthy muscle mass.

According to whom?

Vitamin C has very little to do with the metabolism of carbohydrates. Vitamin C is needed for… collagen, carnitine, norepinephrine and epinephrine, plus other enzymes involved in peptide hormones, tyro-sine metabolism, and bile acid. Vitamin C is also needed for glutathione, the immune system’s primary antioxidant.

As a matter of fact, vitamin C has much more to do with fat metabolism :wink:

Also magnesium is involved in over 300 enzymes, including those needed for synthetising DNA, RNA and proteins, also playing a structural role in bone and cell membranes. Saying that we somehow need less of it because we eat less carbs… makes no sense.

In the context of meat, speaking of iron and of proteins, sure but that’s an easy target.

Except for iron and proteins, meat, at least the meat that people typically consume, isn’t a optimal source for any other micro-nutrient. Unless you eat organs, shellfish or fish rich in n-3. Steak meat for example is terrible for anything but protein and iron. And actually meat eaters have too much iron, it’s healthy to donate blood because of it.

All carnivores are a risky n=1 experiment at this point. Maybe they are better off, of course, but note that diseases like scurvy can take years to develop. So I guess we’ll see. But just like how several prominent Optimal Dieters from Poland developed gastrointestinal cancers we might discover that carnivores haven’t had the brightest idea and it will take years for us to notice it.

Because we are not the Inuit to eat the glycogen stores of raw meat at -18 degrees C and we don’t typically eat caribou liver, kelp, whale skin, and seal brain, raw and at freezing temperatures, to get our vitamin C.

Of course, people with serious allergies might be better off on carnivore, but anecdotes aren’t evidence and personally I prefer dietary advice to be evidence based.

(Full Metal KETO AF) #36

Sorry Fabia, I’m not going to take the time fully rebut and try to educate you as to why I made all those statements. Not worth the energy.

I was a diabetic and am not anymore, fixed it myself. I’ve done lots of reading about how dietary RDAs came about and many they have no idea how much is actually required and those amounts that are will be radically different depending on what your actual diet is. What I said about mag and C is absolutely true. But you would have to do some research on that yourself. As far as conspiracy, well big industry profits aren’t a conspiracy theory. It’s a corrupt reality and if you don’t get that again not going to waste a moment explains how mega grain corporations fund medical studies cherrypicking data to support “whole healthy grains” and vegetable oil. And fast food sponsors like Taco Bell, KFC and others. Look into the people who are the major fund contributors to the ADA and the AHA. No wonder KETO isn’t talked about, although the ADA finally recently admitted that low carb is successful for some people in controlling diabetes because of the mounting evidence circulating on the internet of people’s success stories. There’s lots of 20+ year Carnivores and none of them have had scurvy.

#37

David,

You just hand waved everything I said on account of your experience (anecdote) and due to beliefs which sound a lot like religion.

Don’t get me wrong, but this isn’t science. Saying that something is true, even you believe it with all your heart, doesn’t make it true unless you provide some evidence, otherwise it is just make belief.

I’m not attacking you, or your personal experience, I’m attacking your beliefs and I dare you to do better.

Carnivores don’t get scurvy? This one did:

Of course carnivores jump saying that the guy did not eat enough fresh meat, with Tim Noakes notoriously saying that he probably overcooked it. The no true Scotsman fallacy is strong in the community, coupled with survivorship bias, it’s easy to see how it can lead people astray.

We do agree that some people might get enough vitamin C from fresh meat to not get scurvy, however between optimal levels and scurvy there’s a lot of gray area, on carnivore forums you can see a lot of recollections if bleeding gums for example and as professionals know, it can take many months to years for the more serious symptoms to manifest.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2567249/

And no, you don’t have 20+ years of anecdotes. You have at most 5 years, as the carnivore diet was virtually unknown until 2017.

#38

@fabia and @David_Stilley you are way off topic.

(Full Metal KETO AF) #39

@thejohn Yeah, that happens but it was not totally unrelated. Things come up in discussions. And besides, haven’t you gotten your answer to how about how to ease out of KETO yet after almost 40 posts?

Yes I did. :raised_hand: Tell it to the hand. :cowboy_hat_face:

#40

I understand. It’s just it makes the post less to the point and more noisy.

What is the relation?