A teaspoon of honey

(Ryan Ashton) #1

I’ve been on various diets for about a year, starting with Tin Ferris’ beans diet (4 hour body) and been keto - with some breaks here and there - for about 6 months. I’m tryin to stay in ketosis now for my lead-up to my Ironman on 3rd March.

Anyway, I’m a bit confused about something: does a glucose/insulin spike take you out of ketosis or is it just a large amount of carbs that does it?

The reason I’m asking is that I’m planning on using raw honey as a fuel source for both training and competition and I’m concerned about turning off my body’s fat-burning ability. Honey supposedly has about 10g of nett carbs per teaspoon (about the amount that I would consume in a day).

Also, does a distinction need to be made between “turning off fat burning” and “being in ketosis”?

Anyone got some ideas - and accompanying references?

Thanks a lot,

Ryan

(Sarah ) #2

Most people consider Phinney and Volek to own the definition of how a ketogenic diet works, but over the last few years there’s been both new research and refinement, and also social media driven loosening of how keto as opposed to jetogenic, works, lots of loose terminology.

. My understanding is that occasional small amounts carb intake won’t stop your body from burning fat almost all the time, aka ketosis. Ketosis is the process, the insulin release from carbs is a separate problem. … I’m wondering why add carbs at all though, if you’re a conditioned, fat adapted athlete?? Maybe I shouldn’t ask, but anyhow here’s a video. Or two https://youtu.be/tQbgdRoAfOo or https://youtu.be/6WVLrQmnnAY

and also links to the original works of Phinney and Volek
https://www.amazon.com/Art-Science-Low-Carbohydrate-Living/dp/0983490708/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1517584459&sr=1-2 and https://www.amazon.com/Art-Science-Low-Carbohydrate-Performance/dp/0983490716/ref=sr_1_3?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1517584459&sr=1-3

(TJ Borden) #3

Why not stay in ketosis and just use fat/ketones for energy? That’s the beauty of ketosis. The level of sugar it takes to knock somone out of ketosis varies for everyone, but why risk it?

(Paula Green) #4

Lots of people can stay in ketosis/fat burning with up to 50g of carbs (some probably more - I think Ben Greenfield did a keto experiment for a year before one of his Ironman races and was eating up to 100g of carbs) - especially athletes like yourself. When I was training for Ironman I used my carb allowance around my training - usually cold potatoes and bananas. I like the idea of using raw honey, although I haven’t used it for training I do use it if I get a cold - which fortunately these days is very rare.

You will have a huge advantage out there being fat adapted and eating real foods. I am a slow athlete and was one the one’s near the back of the pack - BUT I finished both my Ironmans feeling amazing (relatively speaking lol) and recovered quickly afterwards. I saw lots of extremely fit looking athletes vomiting and cramping and having all sorts of woes.

Good luck with your Ironman!

(Ryan Ashton) #5

When one is competing in each in endurance sports, it’s inevitable that you’re going to have to tap into your glycogen reserves. Therefore, supplementing with some sort of carbs is absolutely crucial if one have even a hope of finishing an Ironman.

(TJ Borden) #6

Yeah…I’m sure others can weigh in with the science, but that’s not true at all.

(Ryan Ashton) #7

Thanks a lot. I’m oookin forward to it. I am nervous but that’s to be expected. I’m going from having completed a half marathon to a full Ironman. But with all the research I did on keto, the MAF method, etc, I did at one point feel quite confident that I’d be able to finish. Not sure now. Will have to see how it goes.

(TJ Borden) #8

You could start with the latest episode of Keto Woman with Chrissie Bowie

(Ryan Ashton) #9

What’s not true at all?

#10

@Ryan_Ashton A bit off subject but will you be making a thread of how your training is going in regards to the keto lifestyle and how the race goes?
Very interested in this as I’m a runner, former ultra runner, and have been keto for about 5 months or so. I’d like to do another 50K some time in the near future but life is not cooperating.

Anyway, good luck, and even if you don’t do a thread please let us know how it goes.

(Ryan Ashton) #11

Yeah perhaps I will make a thread - good idea. In any case, I will keep you posted on how things turn out. :slight_smile:

(TJ Borden) #12

The idea that you would NEED carbs as an endurance athlete. If you’re fat adapted, once glycogen reserves are depleted, it means you likely CAN have some carbs without getting kicked out of ketosis, but you can still acquire the energy needed from fat (triglycerides).

I’m not an endurance athlete and have no personal experience either way. I’m also not saying you shouldn’t have any carbs. I’m just saying the statement:

Isn’t accurate.

(Ryan Ashton) #13

Thanks for replying. Now I understand what you were referring to.

Funny how you chose Peter Defty as a reference. I wrote an email to Peter Defty - shortly after starting this thread.

Here is a bit of what he said in that email:

“Also look at our Carb Sneak pages here [http://www.vespapower.com/ofm/strategic-carbohydrates/], here [http://www.vespapower.com/carb-sneak/], and here [http://www.vespapower.com/concentrated-carbs-as-a-legal-ped/]. Do NOT fear carbs…this is a keto mis-nomer for an athlete…you will NEED (my emphasis) some for optimal performance and even health for what you are attempting.”

As is pointed out here [https://www.runnersworld.com/sweat-science/adapting-to-burn-fat-as-fuel], “The longer (and slower) the race, the more you’ll be able to rely on fat.” This article actually references Jeff Volek’s FASTER study - another person you referenced too. :slight_smile:

So, the longer and slower the race, the MORE you’ll be able to rely on fat for fuel. It is for that precise reason that I chose to become an efficient fat-burner before attempting Ironman. However this statement also implies that you will not be able to rely entirely on fat for fuel. The ideal fat-burning zone in a keto adapted athlete generally appears to be 60-70% of VO2MAX. But even then, the athlete is not relying entirely on fat for fuel - as the plot from this blog shows (which also references Volek’s FASTER study) [https://blog.adafruit.com/2017/03/26/what-i-learned-from-vo2-testing-in-ketosis/]

vo2submax-3
vo2submax-3.jpeg751×464 48.6 KB

It is clear from where the plot points lie in relation to the Y axis, that none of the athletes were relying entirely on fat for fuel.

So yeah, for competing in an Ironman distance triathlon event, I still stick by my original assertion that carbs are “crucial”.

Thanks for chiming in though.

(TJ Borden) #14

I’m not recommending anything one way or another, nor am I challenging what works for you. I think it’s awesome that you are able to use carbs for fuel for endurance sports. That would suggest to me that you’re probably in great shape and your metabolism isn’t near as deranged as mine. I hope that one day I’ll reach a place where a tablespoon of honey doesn’t completely fuck up my system.

I’m only challenging the statement you made as an “absolute”. Below is an example of someone that uses fat for fuel during a race. I’m not saying it’s the RIGHT way to do it, just that it CAN be done, and your assertion that carbs are crucial, might be right for you, but that doesn’t mean it’s necessary for everyone. In the same way, the Ketogenic diet has done wonders for me, but I don’t assume that everyone else should also try it just because it has worked for me.

https://www.google.com/amp/www.triathlete.com/2017/09/nutrition/one-triathlete-shares-fuels-low-carb-diet_306240/amp