A review of the book Burn by Herman Pontzer


(Bob M) #1

TL;DR: While I think a lot of what he says is true, there’s a lot of cognitive dissonance and a lack of information on how one can actually lose weight.

The book:

The (possibly initial) review

The good.

I think a lot of what the book says is true.

  1. Herman Pontzer used doubly-labeled water, which is a technique that allows one to gather calorie usage information for people (and animals, which is where he started using it). Using this, he found that the hunter-gatherer tribe the Hazda burnt about the same amount of calories per day as did normal people in sedentary jobs in the United States. While the Hazda “exercised” a lot more by walking a lot to either hunt or gather, they would then come back and sit. Their bodies adjusted for the increased calories by adjusting the calories they used elsewhere downward. It should be noted that he’s not the only one who has done this. Others have done it to compare other peoples, and the results are similar: the group that “exercised” more burnt about the same amount of carbs as the group that exercised a lot less.

  2. One of the more interesting sections is where he discusses the idea that exercise would increase calories burnt. That is, the common idea is the more exercise, the more calories burnt. He calls this DEE, daily energy expenditure, and divides this into physical activity and other. The common conception is that other stays the same while physical activity increases, meaning more physical activity = more DEE. His idea, however, is that there is a small increase in DEE as physical activity goes up, but then the body modifies other to go down as there is more physical activity, meaning the overall calories burnt is much smaller than what everyone thinks it is.

He uses a study of women who I think went from being sedentary to running a 1/2 marathon. While their BMR (basal metabolic rate, an estimate of what you burn just to live) stayed the same, they burnt a few more calories (expressed as DEE) when running 20 minutes a day as compared to zero. But their DEE actually goes down from there for 40 and 60 minutes of running per day. In other words, for their DEE, it was not much higher while running 60 minutes a day than doing no exercise. He also uses a mouse study with similar results.

  1. He thinks there’s a physical limit to the amount you can absorb. He thinks most people can only absorb about 5,000 calories a day and analyzes Michael Phelps as an example, who supposedly ate 7,000+ calories a day. There’s no way to know what he ate, though, because he never kept records. Pontzer’s theory is that perhaps Phelps was great because he could absorb more calories than “normal” people. (An aside: he says most people absorb about 95% of what they eat; My guess is that this varies depending on what you eat and by person, such that two people could eat the same diet, and one would absorb more than the other.)

  2. He uses some studies like the RAAM (race across America), where they start out burning 7,000 calories a day and end up near 5,000. So, it’s possible to go over your “limit” for a time, but the body reacts by lowering calories elsewhere. Although, here he thought they used so many calories and couldn’t make up the difference by absorption, so they were actually eating their own bodies.

  3. He thinks your energy expenditure is mainly based on weight. He has curves showing ranges of energy expenditure for body mass, and they pretty much track this idea.

I think pretty much everything he said above is true, or at least makes sense to me. I found that when I would ride my bike a lot, say 60-100 miles a week, that I would become very sparse in movement, my heart rate lowered, and I simply did less when not biking.

The bad.

  1. He hates Gary Taubes.

  2. He hates the low carb/keto diet. In one part, he discusses how great keto is for losing weight. But then says there’s a “dark side” to using fat for energy, which I found to be this argument that because the body can also use sugar, we should use sugar? It’s on pages 54-55 if you want to try to figure out what his argument is, because I can’t.

He has graphs of hunter-gatherer populations, where the higher they are in latitude, the more animals and fewer plants they eat. (And, duh! Every time someone says we should be eating a lot of plants, I think of the plants available in Connecticut in the winter: there are none or at least very few. That’s why we’d be eating meat.) But he uses this to basically say we should be eating more carbs, and he rails about the paleo and keto movements. Not a single thought is given to genetics. I’m 99.8% European, 7x% Eastern European (they change the “x” every so often due to more data). Couldn’t this mean I should be eating more meat and fewer carbs? Pontzer never goes there, always goes back to the Hazda.

  1. While he shows energy expenditure by weight, within a weight, there is a large difference in energy expenditure. For instance, if one weighs 200 pounds, one can burn anywhere from slightly over 2,000 calories to almost 3,500 calories. There is never an attempt (which I could find – maybe I missed one?) to determine why there is this variability (as we know exercise doesn’t create that amount of variability).

1a) He really hates Gary Taubes.

  1. Carb confusion. On the one hand, he says that the Hazda’s favorite food is honey, which is just sugar and water with no magical properties. And we should be eating carbs, yet lists the carb that the Hazda eat as being a very starchy root that is so starchy you spit a lot of it out. And he keeps using mainly a single group – the Hazda – to make this point that we should be eating carbs. Yet there are many groups that don’t eat carbs and do perfectly well. What if some of us can’t eat carbs? Why should we eat them?

I get the sense that Pontzer is a guy who can eat carbs and therefore doesn’t understand why anyone else can’t. He’s the guy who can eat oats for breakfast and be full for hours, whereas I’m the guy who eats oats and is physically starving 15 minutes later. Why is there no indication by Pontzer at all that maybe not everyone reacts well to carbs? There’s none, but I think it’s true. Some of us have issues with carbs.

1b) Have I told you he hates Gary Taubes? There’s a point where Pontzer goes out with a Hazda person who is gathering honey. Apparently, this guy eats a ton of honey while gathering it, and Pontzer takes a dig at Gary Taubes because of this carb intake. But (1) Gary Taubes is not saying that everyone needs to eat low carb, but some do; (2) this guy has to walk miles and risk getting stung to get carbs, so I’d eat a lot of carbs too, and I think Gary would be okay with that; (3) when is this guy going to get this much honey again, maybe never or not for a long time. And this whole idea that honey is important to the Hazda is relatively meaningless for many of us. Let that guy come to Connecticut and gather honey from wild honeybees. He’ll be dead in the winter or maybe anytime (I see incredibly few wild honeybee nests in CT).

  1. Cognitive dissonance. I think of cognitive dissonance as being the idea that there are two opposite ideas in your head, but both of them are true, when they can’t be. Here’s a better description:

There are so many instances of this throughout the book. Keto is a great way to lose weight; but you shouldn’t do this because of some theory about how the body uses carbs in the Krebs cycle. The Hazda eat many carbs per day, though one of their main sources is a tuber so high in starch you spit much of it out. Pontzer shows a graph of hunter gatherers where many eat a lot of meat and very few plants, yet he says we have to eat carbs. Ah, what?

  1. He sets up these ideas. If you exercise, your DEE doesn’t go up by much. I did not discuss this above, but he goes through studies showing if you cut back calories, your BMR (basal metabolic rate) decreases, So, exercise doesn’t do much, but cutting calories doesn’t either. And you can’t do keto, because a bunch of hunter-gatherers eat carbs so you should too. The end result is that I came away from the book without a clear idea of how to lose weight.

  2. He thinks we should exercise, not necessarily to lose weight, but because it’s good for us. I can’t tell what I should do with this information.

  3. He never delves into WHY people who weigh the same can have vastly different calorie intakes.

  4. He cites to basically one study where men who lost weight in a reduced calorie + exercise study kept weight off after stopping the study because they kept exercising whereas the men who stopped exercising gained their weight back. One study. Again, though, cognitive dissonance. If reducing calories causes BMR to decrease, and exercise doesn’t cause much increased calorie expenditure, how did they lose weight, and why would exercise that doesn’t cause much calorie expenditure cause people to maintain their weight loss?

I can’t find it now, but he also cites to a database where people put their own data in it. In other words, it’s self-reported. He uses this to say that people who exercise there tend to keep their weight stable. First, this is self-reported and comes with it many problems (those who self-report are more likely to be probably richer, have more time, take better care of themselves, etc., than those who don’t), and the mere fact he uses this to prove anything is suspect.

The “conclusion”.

I may write more later, but I came away from this book more confused than ever. Exercising more doesn’t mean more calories burnt, at least in the sense that running 4 miles is better than running 2 miles. You will get SOME more calories via some exercise, but it’ll be small. You can’t reduce calories because your BMR goes down. You should eat carbs and not keto, for reasons that don’t make any sense. You should exercise because it has benefits, though. (And I do think exercise has benefits, and weight loss doesn’t seem to be one of them.) But the book cover says “New research blows the lid off how we really burn calories, stay healthy, and lose weight”, but the “lost weight” part is – for my reading of the book – completely not there.


#2

Lots of interesting (if not brand new) thoughts to react :slight_smile:

Well I know exercise can help with weight, my SO always experienced it when he changed his activity but we know that the extra burned calories aren’t as high as people often imagine… And yes, the body can optimize, it’s known that we may burn much more if we suddenly run a nice amount but if we do it every day, our body learn to use less energy for it…
I am pretty sure some people do it amazingly (not like I envy them… if they really exercise a lot, they need to function very poorly to balance it out) and others not so much.

Yeah as it’s dense calorie and tasty too, no wonder they like it and dislike the starchy plants where they need to work a lot for almost nothing. It doesn’t mean people who have easy access to fatty meat needs carbs… :slight_smile: My body is very obvious about it so even if I would care about the opinion of gurus, it would be clear they are very wrong in my case.

My SO eats oats and is satiated for the next 8+ hours, amazing.
I don’t eat oats as I dislike them (except mixed with egg but if I have egg, I don’t need oats) but if I eat carbs, I get hungry IMMEDIATELY. No 15 or 30 mins, I never was like this. I get hungry right away. Even if I would have been perfectly satiated for the next 6-8 hours without the oats. Fruits and other quick pure sugars are even worse.
Yes, we are different. But why people don’t SEE, ask, know that not everyone is like them? I am aware many are different from me. My own SO is nothing like me though we have common things (we both stay hungry eating a tiny meal. like 8-900 kcal). But I am interested in how people eat, what happens when they do this and that so I am aware some people CAN’T eat more than 300 kcal in one sitting. Some people wake up hungry (even my SO doesn’t eat immediately, I think it’s common, waking up and getting hungry a bit later. I typically get hungry 6-10 hours later though my waking time doesn’t even matter, it’s the time of the day). Of course there are people galore who doesn’t work well with high-carb, why is it not obvious to everyone who is even remotely interested about these things…?

It’s glaringly obviously very wrong according to my family’s experiences… Cutting calories ALWAYS worked well for us and not cutting it never did. And exercise keep my SO slim. If he stops, he gains fat at an alarming rate. He don’t lose fat just by exercising as he needs a lot of food for satiation, he needs much exercise AND being hungry a lot to lose fat but then he does it quickly and slims down to whatever figure he wants, no problem. (On HCHF as he only can do that. He can’t get satiated without carbs for long, fat messes with him. I would be similar if I ate low-carb like he tried, I need WAY more protein than that, fat doesn’t satiate me well either. But carbs make me hungry while they satiate him wonderfully. Almost pure carb breakfast? Lasts for super long while he isn’t inactive at all.)

And it depends anyway. I wrote before that sudden exercise, that may burn a lot. The usual not so much. And good luck to run 100 km a day in the Himalaya without using more calories as normal :wink: Our ultramaratoner lost quite a few kgs in days while eating 2000 kcal a day (he knew he would need a few times more but he couldn’t eat more that high). Yes, it’s extreme but the weight-loss was extreme too, it shows something. It would be very odd if some serious but more sane activity would mean NOTHING.
Doing it every day… I would love to see studies about it or just N=1 infos. I never exercised much myself. I wonder how the energy need changes when one runs a marathon every morning (we have such a person too. holiday with husband and the kids? a marathon before breakfast, of course)…
I am sure it can’t be so very much extra energy need or else people doing hard physical work would need insane amounts of calories and they don’t. But I am pretty sure it must be a raise for a healthy body. It would make no sense otherwise. But I may miss something so tell me if you can… If my body can work optimally using N amounts of calories and I suddenly burn pretty much for activity, why would it think a good idea to use less energy for vital things? Why would it be good if my body suddenly worked way less than optimal, struggling with energy? It could simply tell me to feed it and I would. If I have a sudden serious exercise (walking but I can’t burn much energy with anything else), I get super hungry and eat much more than usual.
I can believe there is some wriggle room and yes, even the energy used for the exercise can be optimized somewhat… But you can’t run up to a high hill from nothing and your big land mammal body needs a lot of energy just to function. Even though some people show how low it can go under certain circumstances but that must have a big individual part, my body wouldn’t do it.

But of course they have… My SO weigh way less than me and his energy need is about 1000 kcal higher. It’s not even a big difference, it could be 2000… Weight is one thing, there is difference in muscle mass, some people have higher metabolism for their stats and yes, the activity matters, we hear about it all the time and how couldn’t it? But even without exercise, these numbers may be not close, even for the same person if some time passes.

I don’t think it does though there are some unfortunate folks where it is the case.
A too big deficit causes BMR to decrease, it makes sense. But a small? It’s how we lose fat. At least we normal people whose body doesn’t waste fat when there is no reason for it.

BUT maybe long term deficit does do that. We never tried long term deficits. My SO got slim too quickly, even when he started fat and I have regular high-cal days even when I lose fat just fine (it was long ago, way before keto). I can easily imagine those days help to tell my body that there is plenty of food, no worry. My metabolism quickens very easily anyway. And I never experienced it slowing below it’s normal but of course, I can just look at all the numbers I could take and guess.
But higher-cal days still seem potentially very useful even physically (as mentally they are vital for some of us. and I can’t avoid such days anyway, even if I would function okay without).

Energy burning or not, exercise affects the body (and mind). It may help with the weight, don’t you think? It may be even very individual, again…
I don’t think it’s like that anymore but light exercise tended to reduce my food intake at some point :smiley: But it made me happier and more energetic, who knows what my hormones or other things did… Well, reducing stress easily can help with a stable weight…

Exercise is good, some of us badly need it… It may help some with fat-loss and probably not most of us (or very little) while we know that it can be actually counterproductive for some. Maybe exercise stresses those instead of the opposite, it may make them hungrier or make them think they can eat a ton extra? Surely all happens to some people.
Be it our figure or health, our woe is key, even more important than exercise but the latter may be quite important too.

It surely wouldn’t work for me with all the carbs… Even the carbs on keto interfered!
It’s so, so individual what works for someone, what is healthy, what is satiating, what is enjoyable…


(Doug) #3

Bob, it sounds like he really is failing to acknowledge the variances among people, and neglecting the difference that one’s insulin levels can make (for one thing).

From what you said, it seems that he views energy and exercise as a ‘zero-sum’ game where increased energy usage in exercise necessarily means that less energy will be used during the rest of one’s day. While that does operate, it’s not going to apply evenly across all people, i.e. I would say that one’s age, genetics, lean mass/fat mass ratio, degree of insulin sensitivity, etc., will put one on a sliding scale (or probably a bell-shaped curve, really).

If Pontzer looks at ‘reduced BMR due to reduced calories,’ then let’s not forget that if one can or does access their stored fat, then any reduction in available energy will be mitigated or even negated.

From a review of the book in Chemistry World:

"The central message is very clear: if you want to lose weight, exercise alone won’t work; what will work is eating less. While few would argue with the efficacy of the latter, the reason for the former is that after millennia of evolution, our bodies are very well adapted to regulating and conserving the number of calories we burn each day. It’s not easy to burn any more.

Pontzer admits that this might initially seem counterintuitive. Surely the calories you burn during exercise will simply be added to those your body burns every day just to keep you going. But we are not like simple machines. A much better analogy, Pontzer suggests, is to think of our bodies as a business in which calories are the currency. Remaining solvent requires that if we spend more in one area (exercise), we must spend less in another (basic metabolism) so that if we do burn more calories during exercise, our body will compensate and use less supporting other functions.

The obverse of the calorie coin, however, is that while evolution may have ensured that we spend calories frugally, and for good reason, we efficiently bank any excess calories eaten as fat. Weight really is all about calories in versus calories out – there’s no escaping from the laws of thermodynamics. Of course, if you run a marathon every day or spend weeks trekking across Antarctica, you’ll burn so many calories that you certainly will lose some weight. But that’s not most people’s idea of an exercise regime designed to shed a few pounds.

Nevertheless, Pontzer is keen to stress that while exercise may be of little value in any weight loss programme, it has a multitude of other health benefits and we avoid it at our peril."


#4

It is though, for many of us… I suddenly eat 1000 kcal more every day? I burn 1000 kcal more, apparently as I keep my weight. Or did years ago when I did that for a month, no change (but of course it’s possible I gained 0.1kg or something. that’s the quickest fat gain I managed with serious overeating on high-carb). Once I’ve read it’s not uncommon though we are in the minority.
While some people think that if we eat much more, we automatically burn much more but it usually doesn’t work that way, probably not even on keto. But I don’t have data about people overeating on keto, only my N=1 and another case with rapid fat gain. The body doesn’t stop storing the precious energy when there is a surplus even if it doesn’t happen to everyone.

If it’s easy to burn a lot more while not getting more active, it should be even easier to burn more with exercise. And I am glad extreme activity was mentioned. Good luck for the body to balance out that and trying to function using 0 kcal or a negative number when the activity burns as much as more than BMR… The exercise energy need may be reduced but there should be limits.
I agree that doing some little exercise may matter little. It’s not like oh, this 1 hour yoga burns 1000 kcal , it will be a breeze to slim down while eating even more than usual…
But hiking or running or cycling all day (not 24 hours just during the day, to make it way more common) should raise the energy need. Mountain biking is quite energy consuming too and some people do it for hours. Hard to balance out that.


(Doug) #5

Shinita, that was from somebody else’s review of the book. I do think the point is well-taken, however:

One can’t argue against the evolutionary adaptations we have (often aiming toward survival by storing fat if possible), and that it’s not easy to burn extra is reflected in the fact that fat loss is as hard as it is for so many people.


(Robin) #6

Shinita, I understand I missed telling you happy birthday. Been out of town for a few days. Hope your birthday was memorable!


#7

@robintemplin: Thanks! Not really, it was just like any other normal day (as it is a normal day, actually, never made a big thing out of birthdays though my SO have nice ideas sometimes, once I got tickets for an exhibition full with prepared human corpses to educate us, that was cool!) but I will cook something interesting in the weekend… :wink: Not like that would be uncommon. At least the weather gifted me with cool air, it’s a relief. And today it’s not even humid!

It doesn’t matter though when I remember my own experiences (and some others I trust). If they are against smart stuff (science, good studies, logic, whatever), the smart stuff just isn’t true in general and possibly very wrong for me all the time.
But the human body must be able to handle suddenly burning a lot more calories than usual or else we couldn’t do a lot of things (sudden raise in activity), probably would die easier in cold too (we make a lot of extra heat but it’s not always enough. I don’t know how that works though. but there is some extra heating sometimes, my SO has the thing where he walks in cold weather and at some point his body reacts and get warmer. I don’t have it, I always have huge amounts of extra heat when I am moving. it’s more than enough even in winter though my body can’t perfectly distribute the heat. that would be nice. at least my hands are always warm outside, cold hands are horrible, I have that in my room in winter).


(Bob M) #8

I agree with that review, until here. There is so much wrong with this statement, I can’t even start or I’ll be here all day. One example: how does “thermodynamics” account for the fact that your body will reduce expenditure on non-exercise expenditure? It doesn’t, because the “laws” of “thermodynamics” don’t apply to humans. I’d say it’s cognitive dissonance for someone to read Burn and still think “thermodynamics” has something to do with humans (or any animal). Thermodynamics says the more energy you burn through exercise, the more energy your body should expend, and that’s not true. Eating more should mean that you gain weight, but many studies of overfeeding not only show there’s wide variability in this (some gain no or very little weight, some gain a lot), but that energy expenditure can go up to compensate. Thermodynamics does not and cannot consider this.

@Shinita, I think what happens is that the body wants to survive. If you exercise more, your body has reduce expenditure elsewhere. If you reduce calories, you’ll reduce output from somewhere. Can you lose “weight” while reducing calories? Sure. But will your body do everything in its power to stop that, including reducing your basal metabolic rate? Yes, it will.

Unless you can measure BMR (basal metabolic rate), you can’t make the statement that reducing calories does not affect BMR. That’s not scientifically sound. In your example of your family losing weight because they reduced calories could mean they lowered their BMR and therefore made it harder for them to lose weight in the future. You simply won’t know unless you give them a test to measure their BMR, which you didn’t.

And I’ve looked into getting such a test done. I wanted to test before and after a 4.5 day fast, to see what happens. Unfortunately, it’s expensive (over $500) and I’m not sure what the error is in BMR testing (would a test over 4.5 days still be within the error margins, so that I wouldn’t show anything?).

Here’s a place that does it (though I wanted to get DEXA scans done too):

About $200 for BMR (referred to as RMR, resting metabolic rate, there).


(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #9

The physicist, Sabine Hossenfelder, has a YouTube channel, in which she explains various scientific concepts that people (including occasionally physicists themselves) often misunderstand. Her videos on entropy and thermodynamics are good for getting a perspective on what’s happening.

Thermodynamics developed as a means of getting at how to build more-efficient steam engines, and it works well in that context. The problems start when we try to apply the laws of thermodynamics to living creatures. As Dr. Hossenfelder puts it, “animals are not steam engines.” While thermodynamics can be applied quite well to animals at the molecular level, there are emergent systems, such as metabolism, that appear to create more order; i.e., they appear to lower entropy, even though it is a fundamental principle that entropy can never decrease. The answer, of course, is that the “system” that needs to be considered is not just the animal itself, but the surrounding environment.

Also, as Taubes points out the equations of thermodynamics are reversible; hence they say nothing about the direction of causality. We all know that adolescents are not growing because they overeat and sleep a lot; the sleeping and high food consumption are caused by the process of growing into adulthood. Similarly, an alternative way of thinking to “eat less, move more” is “put yourself in weight-loss mode, and you’ll eat less,” which reverses the standard thinking about the direction of causality.


(Central Florida Bob ) #10

I’m going to fight my temptation to write a book here, but this is one of my pet peeves in life.

Invoking thermodynamics is giving a false air of authority to the CICO argument. Thermodynamics concerns the flow of heat, not metabolisms. The calories measured by burning something in a bomb calorimeter are not what we get out of food, and a calorie is not a calorie is not a calorie. Our digestive systems don’t burn foods to the last molecule. If they did, we wouldn’t have essential amino acids that we must eat because every amino acid would be burned to CO2, NH2 (ammonia) and water and we could synthesize any amino acid from what we ate. If they did, we’d digest cellulose.

Are our bodies exceptionally good at storing energy and adjusting our metabolisms? Of course they are. Running out of energy is a matter of life and death. I’m not in the least surprised that people’s bodies reduce their resting metabolisms when they’re not running or whatever the exercise was. There must have been a bunch of studies that showed that BMR went down while dieting. BMR goes down when you weigh less, so the decrease due to dieting was more than that.

Robert Lustig does a good summary of how the sugar industry pushed the calorie theory because it made their products look innocent. “Since a calorie is a calorie is a calorie and weight is calories in vs. calories out, if you’re fat, it’s your own danged fault. We can prove it analytically!” - says the sugar industry.

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure
TEF = Thermal Effects of Foods (energy to digest)
TEPA = Thermal Effects of Physical Activity
RMR = Resting Metabolic Rate (Basal Metabolic Rate)

EDIT at 2:28 EDT (USA) time: to clarify the last statement above the picture is my sarcastic take on how the sugar industry says that.


#11

Why? It makes much more sense to simply eat more food. (Or you say it makes sense evolutionally to be more sparing? That makes sense too, hence the optimization when one does some exercise regularly.) As I wrote, I think the body uses so much energy because it has to in order to function as ideally as it can. Why to mess with it and act like a poor inferior starving body when there is plenty of food?

No, I don’t think it does unless it’s a big deficit. It would be stupid. There is the extra fat to use it exactly in this situation! So it does. Of course if the extra fat or the energy intake is too little to the body in question, it can fight like crazy… And in some other cases too.
Some bodies (like mine) HATE deficits (or just the food intake. mine always had some obsession with 2000 kcal. it was easy to lose fat as long as my energy need was higher. smaller bodies do need less energy even if no damaging metabolism slowing happens) so they just harass their hosts, hence my inability to lose fat at this point, no matter my woe but if I can trick it, I win :wink: As long as it lasts, my body can count macros unlike me. But even so, certain items help. (But this is just my body. My mind and my circumstances gladly mess with my non-existent fat-loss too. Life is complicated.)

Why not if I experience something that can’t be explained in any other way?
And it may affect it a teeny-tiny bit but who cares about that level?

Nope, it never got harder. I am sure my SO’s BMR got affected when he simply and very quickly starved down his fat but whenever he gained a bit, he always very quickly and smoothly lost it again. Not like many factors didn’t change during those years :slight_smile: I am pretty sure (as it’s very logical) that his BMR was way higher when he needed to lose a bit of fat again. Right after his starvation? It wasn’t easy.
But it’s a non-advisable special thing. He never starved again, merely skipped a meal and his fat-loss time always was mere weeks, it hardly could damage his BMR.

Yes, it’s not scientific and I couldn’t care less :slight_smile: One can’t depend on science if that just doesn’t work for them. Experiences are more precious for those individuals. It’s nice to know things but there are exceptions galore in most cases. We barely can state a few truly universal things about eating and fat-loss.

Why would I need to measure BMR? If I can vaguely track energy intake and weight changes (while making sure crazy things like losing much muscle don’t happen), I can draw conclusions :slight_smile:
Sure, more info could help (like my energy intake. I can’t guess that very well. and my energy need? that is even more crazy, probably) but I just don’t have it. Good thing I don’t need it, my experiences this far are enough to know what would work. It still would be nice… I am a curious one.

While it’s true in my case, it’s clearly not so simple, not even for people who just need to avoid eating too much. It’s NOT easy to do that.
There is the pesky thing called hunger and there are so many more things…
But we know people have their wrong beliefs, prejudices and most of them love to generalize too…


(Doug) #12

Less energy expenditure is the accounting. There’s no mystery, no “magic,” and our DNA programming isn’t “thermodynamics,” although whatever a human organism does still obeys the thermodynamic laws.

Yeah they do, Bob, and to pretend otherwise is to deny some of the relatively few absolutes that we have here.

We should realize that thermodynamics applies all along, before, during, and after any reading of the book - the cognitive dissonance, if any, is to begin without that realization. It’s not pretending that “science” automatically gives us all the answers - it’s up to us in the first place, and granted that some of the ‘whys’ and ‘hows’ of human life are as yet unknown. Thermodynamics, here, is just saying that energy isn’t created or destroyed. It can change forms, but it’s not appearing out of nothing, and it’s not winking out of existence. It always strikes me that this is just common sense.

Wrong. Burning more energy through exercise is expending more energy. We can say that the thermodynamics of the situation are so-and-so, but does this not boil down to the fact that ‘more is more’?

“Science” doesn’t say that we are all the same, nor that a given person will do a given thing in the afternoon just because they did something else in the morning. You and I eat the same thing. Maybe I put some fat on, and you don’t. The situations are different but ‘science’ still applies - and the laws of thermodyamics are part of it.

Again, that’s just not true. We have energy going here and there, and the same for matter. In no way is it correct to make the unqualified statement that “eating more means you will gain weight.” This is because energy expenditure is not a fixed quantity, and neither is fat storage. If you and I “eat more” and I gain fat and you do not, then I’ve stored some energy as fat, and you haven’t - you’ve had more go to the ‘out’ side. Our situations are not exactly the same, and that says nothing against thermodynamics. Thermodynamics is ‘after the fact,’ here. Thermodynamics is not a sentient mind-reader that can predict what we are going to do, it’s just an accounting once we do it. Thermodynamics is the consideration of what occurred.


(Doug) #13

Oh good grief, Shinita - how is this really an argument? :smile:

I have never seen anything that really proves that “mathematics is wrong,” for example, and the same is true for logic, reason, rationality, and the (relatively few) hard-and-fast proven physical realities we have.

Nothing in your experience means that, for example, “thermodynamics is wrong,” or that the laws of thermodynamics don’t apply to you.

Yes, certainly - we can increase energy usage. This is just a given fact, though. If we do it for an amount of time, then during that time period the thermodynamics are different than they would have been if we had not increased energy usage.


(Doug) #14

Well, Hoss, thermodynamics applies just as much to living creatures as to steam engines. Science, here is not claiming that animals are steam engines. :wink::slightly_smiling_face:

Energy in, to storage or not, used, or wasted - this is true for us as well as for the steam engine. On both counts, that’s what there is.

To me, this sounds like the somewhat-frequently-seen falsehood that the first law of thermodynamics does not apply to open systems. While there are true statements that we can make about closed systems, the first law applies to both open and closed systems, including human beings.

The thermodynamics are after the fact. Regardless of causality, in the end things have occurred, and there’s no bypassing physical laws. Adolescents are programmed by DNA to grow and to eat “more.” Some people are programmed to store fat with less relative inducement than others are. But whatever happens, the physical laws of the universe are satisfied.

:+1: I like that. (Whatever works.)

In the end, though, short of surgical removal, the way for us to lose fat is to induce our body to take it out of storage and metabolize it. Is this not just a self-evident fact?

Obviously, this whole deal is a frequent argument on this forum and many other places when diet/health/weight loss is discussed. Let’s say that nobody argued “on the side of thermodynamics.” What, really, is the counter-argument then? That in this case science does not apply? That magic is at work? That things are impossible to measure or figure out?


(Doug) #15

Bob, if we’re having the thesis that CI < CO = weight loss, then what rational argument against that is there? That does not mean that CO is necessarily fixed, nor that a given diet or regimen will be healthy or pleasant or sustainable for a given person, nor that all people respond in the same way to carbohydrates as they do to fats and proteins, nor that there aren’t advertisements that push against our credulity, that involve half-truths and outright nonsense at times.

The objections to thermodynamics in this realm that I see almost always involve things beyond the scope of the physics at work.

It’s certainly true that we’re not bomb calorimeters, but the problem for people who desire weight loss is never that “we’re so different from bomb calorimeters.” The problem is the extent to which we are similar, and efficient at getting energy from food and our stored fat.

That we don’t burn every molecule of food - no question about it. If we use protein to make structures, rather than metabolize it for energy, so be it - that is reflected in the thermodynamics, i.e. "Calories In from that protein are thusly not appearing in the “Calories Out.” To me, it’s obvious, and accounted for by the thermodynamics involved. In no way does this mean that thermodynamics somehow do not apply.

Point taken, and that is a good one. :slightly_smiling_face:

‘Our own fault’ - I do think that it falls to the individual to find some things out. On this forum, the thesis that there is no difference between sugar/carbohydrates and fat/protein doesn’t get very far (and with very good reason). I don’t see that as really being an argument here, and in any case it does not bear on the applicability of thermodynamics. And yet such things are often brought up. I wonder at it all.

I do think that ‘Big Sugar’ and pursuant arguments to it deserve tons of sarcasm and scorn.


#16

I really don’t care about arguments here, sorry. I just express my thoughts, poke at things clearly not right for me and hope that I get some explanation sometimes or just something to think about.

Indeed. I have nothing against those. Just statements handled as facts while they aren’t as experiences go against it. Or logic, common sense… So something “higher”.

I try not to comment but it’s hard.

I completely agree… Of course. Thermodinamics is like that, it always works, basic.
Thermodinamics totally allow me to suddenly use up more energy when there is a need for it :smiley:

And? What does it have to do with what we talked about? I better go to bed and come back tomorrow, my brain isn’t fit for this topic now.

Oh and I didn’t see this until now…

No, why would it? It’s merely increased CI. Well, not necessarily, actually… The true CICO that always works has CI as energy from the food we get, not simply what we ate. It should be close to each other in normal circumstances but it’s not always the case.
I always had problems with eating LESS and MORE… If I “eat less”, I won’t necessarily lose fat. I still may eat MORE than my energy expenditure, even that in the past… I did that. Ate way less but still too much. Less than WHAT, it’s important :slight_smile: But I suppose the base line is maintenance. It’s a big range for me, apparently, though. If I do low maintenance and eat much more but stay in my maintenance range, I still maintain. So, CO may go up if CI goes up. Some people don’t use the food well, maybe due some absorption problem or worm… And there must be other interesting cases. No, it doesn’t go against the thermodinamics not to gain when eating more. Making energy from nothing, well that won’t happen, no matter how seriously certain people think that they literally gain just looking at some food…
But wasting energy, raising CO quite spectacularly without exercise or other good reasons for it, just because CI raised? It’s something the human body may do.

I put myself into “weight-loss mode” BY eating at a deficit… It’s enough AND required for it. (I can say it so nicely in somewhat science language in Hungarian but IDK how it is in English… But maybe it’s understandable.)
HOW to eat at a deficit is the question. Even if things are complex and I can’t just track and calculate and say I have it. I often can guess it though but it doesn’t really matter. I never ate according to numbers (even if I had vague targets after I had some idea about what sounds good) and always knew those numbers may or may not be right anyway.
Now I have goals like “eating a pound of meat and maybe some eggs first” but it’s only one important rule. Numbers, even right ones just don’t help.


(Doug) #17

That’s pretty reasonable. But to start with, the question is often whether something is true for all of us (or false for all of us), or if it’s just true for some of us. Some things really are true for everybody, including the physical laws of the universe.


(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #18

I don’t know anything about that. I do know, however, that the laws themselves are formulated with the words “in a closed system” contained therein. What that means for open systems, I couldn’t say.


(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #19

Not at all.

But it is possible to argue, with Phinney and Volek, that we are not what we eat, but rather what our body does with what we eat. And that absolute caloric numbers in and out are to a significant extent moderated and controlled by the body’s hormonal responses to various foods.

We can also say, despite the Coca-Cola Company’s best attempts to confuse the issue, that the effect on the body of a given number of calories consumed as sucrose bears little resemblance to the effect of the same number of calories consumed as protein. And we are not contradicting the laws of thermodynamics by saying this, either.

I find it highly ironic that such new thinking has failed to disloge the century-and-a-half-old notion that the burning of food to ash is relevant to how the human body actually responds to food. The hypothesis made sense, back when burning up food to see how much heat it released was all we knew how to do, but you’d think the discovery of ATP and its role in fueling bodily activities would have displaced it.

And anyway, If we really believed it was all about the calories, we’d be counting the caloric content of the fibre we eat, because (a) fibre contains calories, and (b) calories in have to match calories out, right? So the heat value of that fibre has to go somewhere. Anyone who wants to argue that fibre doesn’t count, because it’s not digestible, is already arguing for the position that some calories are different from other calories. Which is not what the Coca-Cola Company wants us to believe.


(Doug) #20

Not ‘formulated.’ Like I said - we can make some true statements about closed systems, applying the first law of thermodynamics. Likewise, we can apply the law (and all of thermodynamics) to other systems as well; these are, after all, universal laws. We’re talking about the conservation of energy and mass. An open system can have mass transfer as well as energy transfer, so the conservation of both mass and energy apply, but the law itself applies equally to open and closed systems.

Somebody, somewhere, saw a statement about the first law applied to a closed system, and conjured up the notion that somehow the law then does not apply to open systems. :roll_eyes: And here we are.

There are different things there. Of course we are what we eat, but that doesn’t argue against our body doing different things with our food. That we are comprised of what we eat is an absolute, while our response to food is variable across macronutrients and across individual people. Both things apply.

Hormonal effects - no argument there - but those are baked in before the ‘absolute caloric numbers.’ Whatever the case for an individual person may be, the thermodynamics are there and apply.

Neither CICO nor energy balance nor mass balance predict what the mix of macronutrients will be, nor what a given body does with them. But when it’s finished, then the physics reflects what did happen.

No defense of Coke or ‘Big Sugar’ here - as I said to CFLBob, I think sarcasm and scorn should be heaped upon them. However (:smile:) I think there is more than one thing here too. While we agree that “a calorie of sucrose” won’t necessarily have the same effect that “a calorie of protein” (or fat) does, the basic In/Out deal still applies. You’re right that it’s not contradicting the laws of thermodynamics to say all the above. Where I start arguing is when people start pretending that the laws don’t apply, or don’t matter.

That the different macronutrients may affect us differently doesn’t mean that Coke is wrong - if it’s pointing to the basic conditions of CICO, as far as they go. And any diet that results in fat loss works because of CICO, not in defiance of it.

Does this really matter? We can convert ATP to calories, joules, etc. (a mole of ATP gives us ~7.3 calories). We’re not ‘bomb calorimeters,’ but we do the same thing - get energy from food.

The challenge for fat loss isn’t that “we’re not the same as bomb calorimeters.” It’s that we are so similar - we do the same thing and we’re very efficient at it.

Nobody is saying there are no other concerns beyond the number of calories. Of course there are. But that does not mean that the basic physics and mathematics no longer apply.

Calories in don’t have to match calories out. This is because there is storage to consider.

Yes, the heat value of the fiber has to go somewhere. (I wish everybody would be literal and thoughtful about this stuff in that way.)

We can count the caloric value of indigestible fiber if we want to. It’s going to be part of the ‘In’ and then part of the ‘Out,’ so it’s very straightforward (and obvious, no?). I don’t think it changes anything in this discussion, though.