im still not getting the low carb stance ??? i can just eat less callories and lose the same weight what does keto give me ?
Why people say fat adapted
BuckRimfire
(BuckRimfire)
#67
One of the best arguments would be to look way back to one of Steve Phinney’s first papers on the subject (1984 IIRC). He took a group of high-level bike racers and fed them a high fat diet and measured their performance repeatedly. They did worse than they had before until the fourth week, when they rebounded to match their previous power capacity. So SOMETHING happened to them after three weeks of the diet that let them increase their performance. We think of that as “fat adaption.”
Had the study been only three weeks, we might have missed out on a lot of keto athletes! Like Paula Newby-Fraser, the great Ironman triathlete.
tdseest
(Tom Seest)
#68
I believe this article contains drill downs to references and studies which explain the role of insulin in both fat storage and fat burning, so I’m not going to re-reference or post them here: https://nutrita.app/guide-to-insulin-and-insulin-resistance/
I believe I counted 31 references which is probably adequate reading material.
I’m no expert on Insulin, I’m no master debater, I don’t memorize references, but I’m happy that my Pancreas seems to function quite normally, as does my Liver and my fat stores, and that I’m able to process incoming energy in some organized proper form. I’m happy I have insulin, but I try to manipulate it and control it through dietary patterns. I feel bad for those that can’t produce this hormone for themselves and have to take it in via injection. I realize that if I don’t have this valuable commodity, that I will neither store or burn fat in an adequate form to keep the lights on.
I hope you figure it out, and get your answer.
tdseest
(Tom Seest)
#69
I believe @richard did an excellent job in kind of answering your question when he reviewed the results of the “biggest loser” study in this post here: How Does Our Body Lose Weight Without the Ketogenic Diet?
tdseest
(Tom Seest)
#70
It would seem that this discussion probably got a little heated, as these things tend to do, and I hope that it didn’t lead to excessive calorie consumption, or excessive production of cortisol for anyone. Sometimes, we don’t have the skills or the knowledge to effectively communicate our ideas, and it can get frustrating.
Please try to maintain some level of civility and let go of the frustration in productive ways.
David_Stilley
(Full Metal KETO AF)
#71
@tdseest Tom this was never a discussion. It was someone making a provocative statement and lots of people including yourself giving lots of valid references to his original question only to give one liner answers like. “You’re wrong. What about my brother. That’s just not true. Show me a study.” He couldn’t possibly have even taken a moment to check out anything. He is supposed to be 5 years into a keto diet yet doesn’t even want to accept the basic concept of ketogenic eating. Someone three months in knows this stuff. It wasn’t heated people just got sick of the bait and troll routine. You are indulging him by wasting your time, his goal with this thread. As Rob said
This is the best way to deal with it. 
Digital_Dave
#72
Folks, debates are always welcomed and can be quite beneficial most times. But please refrain from any name calling. I do not believe this paints an accurate portrayal of the great community we have here on these forums, and can/will simply escalate things. … Thanks
PaulL
(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing)
#74
We need to remember, I think, that the energy-balance hypothesis is not wrong, merely inadequate to explaining all the data. I find the hormonal model much more satisfying, because it explains so much more about the phenomena of fat gain and loss. And to think that my body works so well that I could shed an amount of fat weighing as much as a not-so-small child—and keep it off—by eating delicious food and never going hungry!
I am beginning to suspect that the reason the CICO energy-balance model is so powerful is that it appeals very strongly to our inner Puritan: Things that are good for us are not supposed to be as delicious as bacon, dammit! It can’t work unless I have to suffer! The notion that we can lose weight by living an enjoyable life and hardly exerting ourselves is deeply offensive to that Puritan way of thinking. Bacon and beef give us so much pleasure that they simply have to to be bad for us! 
MarkGossage
(bulkbiker)
#75
Doesn’t that make it “wrong” anyways… it’s certainly not as universal as the CICO peddlers with their first law of thermodynamics arguments would have us believe therefore like black swans it is false?
Not wanting an argument but that seems the logical conclusion to me…
Happyheart
(Wendy)
#76
Here is a nice explanation of what, or perhaps why fat adaptation makes a difference.
KBG
(Khara)
#78
This was the next article in queue after @Happyheart Wendy’s article. Interesting study on CICO vs CIM (carbohydrate insulin model).
“So, the study showed that the type of calories consumed affect the number of calories burned, challenging the long-standing dogma that all calories are alike to the body.”
“ A credible case can now be made that all calories are not alike to the body”
https://elemental.medium.com/major-study-supports-carbohydrate-insulin-model-of-obesity-cb7d47a571d9
PaulL
(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing)
#79
No argument from me, Mark!
I did mean “not actually wrong” in the sense that Newton’s Laws of Motion aren’t wrong, but they also don’t tell the whole story—which Einstein had to flesh out in his papers on relativity. But you are right—the energy balance hypothesis doesn’t go anywhere near as far toward explaining obesity as Newton’s laws go toward explaining motion. Even with Einstein in the picture, Newton’s laws are still quite useful, whereas the energy balance hypothesis has no practical application whatsoever. After all, if eating less and moving more had actually worked for any of us, we wouldn’t be here on the Ketogenic Forums, would we?
CICO thinking is so inadequate that we probably need to ditch it completely. As in, not just throw it in the ditch, but dig a 10-foot-deep hole, toss it in, and cover it with several tons of dirt.
ETA: Perhaps we should also drive a steak through its heart, first? 
Rclause
(Scott)
#80
When in deficit and running 30 miles a week I was able to lose 50 pounds. So caloric deficit can work but it is not easy to do. I also tapped the brakes and slowly put 30 pounds back on. So it IMO not an easy way to maintain. I found counting calories to be a pain and hated having to keep my willpower tuned to resisting food.
Enter Keto WOE and I don’t measure or restrict calories. I only eat until full and feel great and lost the weight. My blood tests are fantastic and I am very healthy. I am very into the science but equally my own N=1. Keto for me is effortless where deficit is not.
IMO CICO can only be logical and perfect measurement in a closed system. When you factor in all of the ways our body can adjust metabolism, waste and conserve energy, store energy and how hormones affect this the law of thermodynamics has many confounders. This is not saying CI<CO will not cause weight loss. I am saying that the CO side is much more difficult to measure when the body can change it at will. With keto I can balance both without the need for any calculation or record keeping.
I think back to a podcast where someone said “do you ever see a group of animals whip out a scale weigh food or app to figure out how many calories or when to eat?” They have a way of eating that keeps their weight in check…naturally. Why anyone who has been on a keto WOE for 5+ years would even want to dive back into the CICO debate is beyond me but if either way works for you than that is the path you should take.
might be easier than say a ribeye 
