Why do doctors get so little nutrition education?

(Alec) #22

Cutting, yes, chronic, no.

#23

Reminds me of my sister who went to that well-known clinic in MN; she had been having severe chest pain and no one could figure out why (at the time she was in her early 40s and a triathlete). The clinic docs decided to use her as a test subject and ended up inducing a heart attack, not once, but twice!!! She saw an endocrinologist there who couldn’t find anything wrong w/ her. Once she returned home, she went to an old school endocrinologist, who thought she was severely hypothyroid and put her on Synthroid. Within a week, she stopped having chest pain and her energy slowly returned. She continues to do well on Synthroid and has had no return of the cardiac symptoms.

(karen) #24

Yet another facet of this: Look at Timothy Noakes. Being a licensed physician who breaks barriers of traditional thought or medical “knowledge” contained in ICD is dangerous. Not just in an, “oh gosh my golf buddies might disapprove” sort of way, but in a we-didn’t-approve-this-lose-your-license sort of way, or a malpractice sort of way. This fact protects us from complete quacks (at least in theory), but it also “protects” us from cutting edge and alternative discoveries unless we stray outside the umbrella of Big Med.

To me, we’ve reached an unpleasant quandary. I’m betting doctors have always had struggle with corruption - they are perceived to hold the knowledge of life and death, what could be more powerful than that. But the world has become so big that it’s not really healers, who we hope we can trust, who hold the real power now, it’s the institutions that hold the healers hostage.

(Alec) #25

It’s self regulated, isn’t it? :scream_cat::see_no_evil:

(karen) #26

:rofl:

(Todd Allen) #27

Yikes! Glad your sister wasn’t a contributor to this study.
https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/news/media/releases/study_suggests_medical_errors_now_third_leading_cause_of_death_in_the_us

(Bunny) #28

The subject “Why do doctors get so little nutrition education?” caught my attention!

The flip side of the coin:

How would the pharmaceutical industry stay in business if doctors were trained or required to complete more education on nutritional sciences and its affects on the cause of disease?

Preventative medicine is not the goal?

Dollars and non-sense? ‘…keep them confused until we drain every lost dollar out of them until their dead?’

Food & Agricultural manufacturing are also monetary stake-holders in this, they like funding the research to prove how healthy their products are, if not, they pull the funding, hide the negative research and tell the spearhead to disable (peer-pressured) all subordinates on the lower end of the totem poll?

(Brian) #29

I hear ya!

Doctors are really good at fixing stuff like that. I broke a leg a few years back that would probably have had to be amputated a few hundred years ago. Plates, screws, and a whole lot of healing and I can walk almost normally.

The stuff about diet, nutrition, that kind of stuff, I’m not so convinced they’re so well trained or ready to offer meaningful help. Drugs to deal with something life-threatening like NOW? They’re all over that like white on rice.

(linda) #30

The latest research says 19.6 hours is the average time spent in nutrition education. Physicians are not trained for preventative medicine - they are trained to treat diseases through medication and surgery. Honesty, I wonder if training in nutrition would be of any value since the registered dietician curriculum promotes a “balanced diet” with fresh fruits, whole grains etc- typically 3 meals and two snacks a day. I work with eating disorders as one of my specialties and during a meeting Friday spoke out on behalf of HFLC to manage T2, seizures, obesity and food addictions to a group of therapists. The Binge Eating Disorders social worker is a behaviorist and thought KETO was another diet fearing the restricted food choices would set up patients for binges and also cause fatty liver disease. She - like many - think we need sugar and carbohydrates to function and balancing food groups is the norm. It’s difficult to change the norm.
Speaking about the many medical improvements - in addition to weight loss is hard to argue against. I said - people are desperate to feel healthy and have found this program to be helpful. I mentioned my own experience briefly - but did not try to preach. (symptom relief and Mom with Alzheimers) I just offered information and education and encouraged them to be receptive - which I am happy to say they were!

Baby steps!

#31

That is so interesting, friends husband had something similar. In his 60s with a prior history of cancer but reasonable weight and otherwise appeared healthy. Developed a tremor in his hand. Went to the top neurologist in his large urban east coast area. Diagnosed him with Parkinsons or some other type of tremor. Put him on very strong medication for 6 months which did not help. Went to his internist who did a thyroid panel. He has graves disease, he is hyperthyroid. Put on medication, no more tremor

#33

Yes, very similar. Just shows that even those Drs who are considered “experts” are very fallible. Unfortunately, it is the patient(s) who pay for their mistakes with continued bad health.

(Bev Anne Moynham) #34

I was at a keto seminar yesterday with Dr. Westman and Dr. Wortman and a few other keto practitioners and it was pointed out (I don’t remember by whom) that if med schools gave more courses on nutrition they would be teaching the present food guidelines and that wouldn’t be any more help than no education at all.

(charlie3) #35

Whether a med school nutrician course were valid or invalid the reason it’s not taught may be mundane. I believe individual States certify physicians. There is an exam that must be passed, presumably administered by each state? Medical students, predictably, are focused on what ever might be on the test. May be it’s State government officials who need a talkin’ to. If I’ve got this wrong feel free to correct me.

(TJ Borden) #36

Listen to @BevAnne casually name drop… “so I was just chillin with Westman and Workman yesterday… you know, typical Saturday… anyway…”

:rofl::rofl::rofl: you’re awesome @BevAnne

(Bev Anne Moynham) #37

No not typical – I had to get up at 5:00 am and catch a 6:30 ferry. I am not a morning person!!! But it was worth it. If I was going to name drop I’d tell you that Dr. Wortman is my doctor.

(Nicole Silvia) #38

Because it’s an entire education all to itself that takes years to learn and they already chose the educational requirements to be basic Doctors.

One of my best friends is a Dietitian and we were roommates while in school. It’s a 4 year degree and it’s hard. She had to learn all the chemistry and how all these things effected the body.

I work in ultrasound. I do echo (cardiac) and sometimes people think I can check other organs and I can’t because it’s an entirely different education for those organs that takes a lot of time and testing to learn.

General Docs don’t know enough about a lot of things to give you hard core advice. That’s why there are so many specialists. (Ex. Cardiologists) and then there are specialists within the specialists who hone a skill (ex. Electrophysiologist/cardiologist). And although they themselves are technically also “Doctors” and technically “Cardiologists”, all their experience is within a very narrow frame/specialty, which is good, because it makes them a master of THAT particular science.

BASICALLY, they are human. We can’t know the fine details of everything. You can’t say why does that MMA fighter not understand a black belt level BJJ move? Because in the real world, we have only so much time, energy and resources to hone our skills and we pick and choose, so hopefully we are excellent at at least ONE of them.

So general Docs are good at being general all around docs that you see on a day to day basis. Specialists are brilliant at that particular specialty and are not used to “general” questions, etc. Etc. Make sense?

And honestly as much as we educate ourselves about diet and nutrition, we are nothe experts either. Likely we are reading books published by biast authors and reading studies that are also usually biast and/or not telling the whole picture. It’s not the same as going to college for years, understanding the science and then actually practicing it in the field for several years. The research papers are also inturpreted within a bias mind, just like the bible is by different people.

I personally don’t trust anyone who thinks they know everything about anything.

Also, the science is always evolving and changing how we treat people. Everyone in healthcare has to spend hours every hear on “continuing education” to try and keep up-to-date on the new guidelines and ideas. It’s not an easy job to be a Dr.

Also, some of them struggle to balance their demanding careers with having a family and life outside of work.

#39

I’m a vet and we do everything. :grin:

I’m totally just being a smartass, I completely agree with everything you just said and I think it’s important to keep in mind the sheer amount of knowledge doctors have to have. My dad is a pathologist (for human animals) and I can’t have a coherent conversation about anything medical with him other than pathology. But he sure knows a lot about pathology.

Amen.

Just saying, though, if there is a zombie apocalypse, you really would be better off with a vet on your team than an MD.

(Nicole Silvia) #40

I’ve heard vet school is more demanding. You guys don’t have the depth of resources and specialists with animals.

I’d love to start a new conversation with you on another thread in regard to pet’s and diet. I’m switching my cats from an expensive prescription diet to raw.

#41

I can’t speak to whether it’s more demanding, but our first three years are all coursework, then fourth year in clinics. My friends in medical school had two years of coursework I believe, third year in clinics and fourth year rotating out and figuring out where to apply for internship. (I think this is the case, if anyone here is an MD, please feel free to correct me.) I do think we small animal vets would benefit from a curriculum where we focus entirely on small animals though. The medicine is becoming more and more advanced all the time. As one of our faculty members in school told me once, nothing ever falls out of the curriculum, stuff just keeps getting added. Sooner or later, we’ll have to specialize our education/licensing further, in my opinion. You’re right a lot of vets don’t have the luxury of referring to specialists, and I’m pretty lucky to be in an urban area where that’s an option for me but there are always clients who want us to keep managing, or can’t afford the specialist, etc, and I want to be able to make sure they are well taken care of too.

I’d love to have a conversation about your cat’s food, I’ve been on a few threads about this before, you might be able to find them. But if you have questions, I’m happy to help! My cats have all gotten a raw diet for years so I am well-versed, but it sounds like your kitty has special needs maybe? Another thread, or direct message, either is fine.

(Nicole Silvia) #42

Also these Doctors who are supportive of keto are just Docs who were curious of the trend and ran with it. I’m very glad they are around and are helping educate, but they are making a lot of money and a reputation on this. They are not Dietitians who went to school specifically to study the effects of food and chemicals within the body.

Not trying to discredit them at all, but they are not “experts” on diet and nutrition at all, just studying and becoming experts on the one they are promoting.

Again, don’t misunderstand me, because I do very much enjoy and utilize videos of some of these Doctors, but take it with a grain of salt. A friend of mine paid a good sum of money for private phone consults with a well known Youtuber Keto Dr. and it became clear that he really wasn’t such an “expert”. But he’s famous and probably making a lot of money right now.

My point is, please don’t dog on professional’s if they don’t understand to your liking this very specific diet. It’s really up to us as individuals to learn and experiment with it and lets never forget to use our basic common sense.

You have every right to change Doctor’s or seek out professionals who are to your liking. That is your right, but don’t be surprised when the professionals aren’t all catering to the latest fad or to your specific goals.