What if the “cheats” don’t actually affect you as little as you think

(Doug) #21

Janelle, I cannot believe that it is as simple as that. Even if he just “stored the whole thing” as weight, it wasn’t close to a 4 lb piece of cheesecake, was it? Remove the water from that piece of cheesecake, and what is left? Not much, as far as weight (and nothing that I’d think would have such an outlandish effect on body weight). “Keto” cheesecake - I take it your doctor was eating ketogenically, overall? I see no plausible explanation how that one piece would affect him for 2 weeks and to the extent of 4 lbs in the beginning. Doctor, had bariatric surgery - he’s got to be familiar with weight measurement and body functions - but I still suspect something’s not right, as stated.

Mike, I would firstly look to water retention and electrolyte balance. When fasting, the reality is that most of us will only lose around a half pound of fat per day, and that can be easily swamped by other things going on in the body on a daily basis, i.e. the scale will rarely reflect true fat loss or not, day-after-day. It’s only in the long run that things even out.

To actually gain 7 lbs in a week - man, that is some serious chowing-down. :wink: I don’t think it really works that way, especially if 24 hours corrects it.

I once ate a lot of salty pretzels, and swelled up that same day. Didn’t weigh myself, but later calculated that to maintain the normal body concentration of salt I would need to have retained 18 more lbs. of water. Making use of no salt consumption, potential glycogen depletion, and supposed diuretic effects of coffee or tea, I have lost more than 10 lbs. in a day, just to show that it can be done.

(Running from stupidity) #22

The trend is your friend!

:slight_smile:

(Doug) #23

Ilana, if some effects are delayed or take a while, that makes sense to me - I see it like a bell-shaped curve of effect, rising to a peak and then trailing off, perhaps trailing off for a good while. Maybe my ‘bell’ ain’t too good-lookin.’ To say, “I only cheated once this week,” may still mean effects that spread over several days.

Alcohol takes me a while to get over. I drank a lot of wine 3 days ago, and it’s only today that my hands look like normal, joints have quit hurting extra, etc.

(Bob M) #24

I went on vacation and gained 7 pounds in one week, with not many carbs (two ice creams, two pizzas, some chocolate, the rest keto). It took me somewhere around a month to lose that weight, and that includes some 3+ day fasts. I think it depends on how easily you gain weight and how hard it is for you to lose weight. I used to think the weight gained was all water weight, but it takes so long for me to get back to pre-vacation weight that I think it’s something else.

It certainly doesn’t take a day to lose it, at least for me.

(John) #25

This has been my experience. Sometimes I think that the change I see on the scale was “earned” two weeks ago, and has very little to do with what I did the day before.

(Doug) #26

Bob, I agree that it’s not all water weight - with that long loss time you describe. I also can’t believe it’s truly gaining one pound of fat per day, either. Somewhere in the middle? Limited carbs, yes, but going from keto to “some carbs” means a straightforward water retention of 3 molecules for each carb molecule, eh? That may be too general, i.e. not sure what type of “carb molecule” has to be there… glycogen?

(Janelle) #27

He’s a bariatric surgeon who practices keto and mentors it as part of his obesity specialty. I’ll ask him what about the extra carbs creates the extra weight for him or for anyone. I would assume it’s a buildup of fluids of some sort. In no way is he saying he gained 4 lbs of fat from a piece of keto cheesecake. He had a worse reaction the time he caved and ate a piece of “real” (full sugar and wheat flour) cake.

(Doug) #28

Keto cheesecake wouldn’t have many carbs (I’m assuming) so yes - will be interested to hear his explanation. Totally believe the full sugar and wheat flour made for a worse reaction. :neutral_face:

(Janelle) #29

3.6 net carbs per slice. He is on 20 whole carbs or less (Page 4 plan). I suspect with a smaller stomach and pretty strict carb restriction, it could cause some issues. He was asked to review the bakery and share the info about it.

I tried a piece of the cake, found it just meh and did not gain 4lbs.

https://www.zambawango.com/#low-carb-gluten-free

#30

It’s a great question, OP

No one gets obese overnight, or develops T2, or heart disease, or any other degenerative health issue. We progress towards them, over decades, one donut, or ‘cheat’ at a time.

If we are lucky, we get to reverse the process, but playing footsie with the brake, accelerator and gears is a great way to bugger up the clutch, isn’t it?

(Doug) #31

If the 4 lbs. was due to that piece of cheeskcake, then there must be some incredible “multiplier effect” at work in the end. 3.6 grams is like 8/1000 of one lb. :smile: Not saying there isn’t something really at work here, and perhaps we do tend to minimize what a ‘cheat’ will do to us.

:sunglasses: :grin: Ha! (I should have this tattooed in reverse on my eyeballs so I never forget it.)

(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #32

If the cheesecake raised his insulin level, he’d be storing not just the cheesecake, but other stuff he ate, no?

A number of corporate physicians explored the effects of a low-carbohydrate, high-fat diet on their obese workers and executives during the 1950’s and 1960’s. One such doctor, whose name I forget, reported that one of his executives would actually start to gain weight if he ate just one extra apple beyond the amount of carbohydrate that caused his weight loss. In terms of what we know today, he must have been highly insulin-resistant, and his carbohydrate intake, however low, must have been perilously close to his insulin threshold, for a single apple to have had that kind of effect.

(Adam Kirby) #33

It’s possible cheating could affect us in ways we’re not even aware of.

TLDR: on keto his arterial thickness decreased (a seemingly impossible thing). After his weight gain experiment his CIMT thickness greatly increased.

Since he went back to low carb his score has decreased again. But yeah, this is pretty crazy information.

Now, will this stop me from occasionally cheating? No. But it certainly makes me aware that cheating isn’t zero risk.

Then again, Dave’s weight gain experiment was 4 weeks. Most people don’t cheat anywhere near that duration of time.

#34

You’d hope not! Everybody should probably be familiar with that particular experiment though.

(less is more, more or less) #35

I’m so confused. Dr. Berry “weighs” in.

#36

I’m pretty sure it was Dr Attia who was saying it takes about a week for regular people to switch back and forth but he can do it much faster (well - since he’s a super athlete…) and can easily choose to burn either glucose or ketones but prefers the latter because of it gave him better mental acuity.

So I reckon about a week.

And frankly I don’t know if fasting is a free un-cheat “get out of jail” card.

(Running from stupidity) #37

I think it helps some people, at best.

(Jenny) #38

I think fastings greatest post cheat benefit is getting rid of the physical discomfort from cheating even if it wont get you down in weight immediately.

(Erik K) #39

I had a 3 day cheat last weekend. Gained 10lbs, felt like crap until I was 4 days back into eating “keto” . Still up 5 lbs but I’m feeling great again. So sluggish after it. It’s a great reminder why I’m doing this!!!

(Bunny) #40

Dr. Berg has some interesting words to say about your questions?

Cheat Meal After Building Your Health Reserve, Not Before: In this video, Dr. Berg talks about Cheat Meal. When just started on Keto and not yet fully adapted into fat burning[1], it is not recommended to cheat because it would take longer to get back on track (or it blocks Ketosis 6 to 20 hours in one meal). If you feel the need to get off the program, ask yourself first as to what problem are you trying to solve and try to solve whatever that is because once you start with cheat meal, it is hard to stop.

Goal: Build up enough health in the body that you would have so much reserve.

Footnote:

[1] I personally consider “fully adapted into fat burning” at around 27 weeks on strict keto; after that my metabolism is capable of going well-over 100-150 in carbohydrates (I’m turning this directly {UPC-1} into energy not fat storage) and still be registering ketones with a blood meter especially with RS2: resistant starch (lower glucose & higher ketone readings) in my diet!