The Big Question : The One I Can't Figure Out!

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(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #12

800-900 cals per day is really low. It’s not sustainable long term. The Minnesota Starvation Study only went to 1500! What happens when you don’t give yourself sufficient fuel is first you get hungry. If you ignore that signal long enough it might go away or might not. Many folks on very reduced calorie CICO diets are hungry the whole time for months or years, some aren’t. If you don’t respond to hunger by eating, your metabolism next adapts to match energy requirements to energy input. This is what is meant when someone says your metabolism ‘slows down’. This is what eventually sabotages all CICO diets. You can not eat a significant calorie deficit forever simply because you will eventually starve yourself to death if you try. Yes, if you keep it up long enough you will eventually lose fat, but also muscle, bone and organ mass/function. Systems simply shut down to conserve energy. Eventually something vital shuts down and it’s over.

Generally, once someone eats a serious calorie deficit for several months or a year or more, slowing their metabolism in the process, when they start to eat more food again, as you must or die, a lot of the intake ends up as stored fat. Why? Because the metabolism was slowed significantly, it’s virtually impossible to avoid an energy surplus. All The Biggest Loser contestants were followed for several years after losing their weight initially. Every one of them had slowed their metabolism by at least 500 calories per day, and that reduction persisted for several years after the program ended. Every one of them not only regained all the weight they lost, but more in addition.

You say you get sick in ketosis. From what you’ve described about yourself in various posts, I don’t find that surprising. My guess is that you’ve managed to do a lot of significant damage to your metabolism and it’s not going to fix itself quickly and/or easily. A healthy metabolism responds to varying inputs/outputs of energy and glucose/insulin changes quickly and smoothly. You can get all the wonderful test results in the world, but if you can not change your weight easily and quickly by eating more or less (carbs and/or calories) you’re not metabolically healthy. A healthy metabolism is a responsive metabolism. Inability to manage fat is a symptom of dysfunction. And yes, I know a lot of folks won’t agree with that statement.

Just my opinion, but my guess is that you will have to go very low carb, maybe even zero, for awhile (maybe months?). If you get ‘hell’s version’ of carb withdrawal symptoms for a few weeks or even a month or two, you will just have to tough it out. Adequate fluids and electrolytes will help. You got where you are after years of self-abuse and it is very unrealistic to expect to fix and repair the damage easily or quickly.

Stop comparing yourself and what’s happening to you with other people who are seemingly doing the same things but having different outcomes. This is one of those situations where you are you and very unique. No one else has done exactly the things you’ve done or has the same challenges to work on.


(Mg ) #13

Wow! That’s a lot to take in,
I agree with some of this however
, there is a bigger point.
For me if it was about the last 20 -30 which it is obviously

I would do the stinking exercises. Or drop down into ketosis.
Get sick, be done with it, pounds off happy.
It’s so not that at this point.

Now. It’s bigger

I only dropped down in caloric intake to gauge body reaction.
I don’t or won’t live there. It’s unhealthy


I have been trying to figure this out for almost a year. When the weight loss stopped.
So it is about the drop off. No question
 However it’s a must to figure out why.

The stages I’m attempting, the alterations at this phase in it
 Are simply to gauge my own body reaction.
The other people, I only pulled them in kinda as a study.
If I’m being honest.

Once they agreed after I hounded them, they actually were glad.
So that pin points a few of your points.

There is an absolute science to why this is happening. And zero correct reason.
If I’m attempting this from a scientific study at this point
 Which I am
I can not stop NOW.
I have too much invested.
Mentally, and physically.

So now I have others questioning why, and that’s FANTASTIC!
My doctor who has been with me though this, is stumped too.
I like it! I want him to figure it out. I want people who are in this horrible situation and quit, to understand the why!

There is not many people who have continued to do what I’ve attempted to do here.

It’s a very specific study. It’s gotten bigger. I just didn’t put it all on paper because I don’t want it to alter anyones responses on my questions and blogs.

I know what will probably work. Exercise. Ketosis 
that’s not what I’m attempting to do now that I’m this far in.
I can drop it. Or maybe I can’t now? Maybe once we get to a certain point
 There is no more weight loss?

You’re a smart man. Can you imagine being able to tell someone that? With certainty?
Look, outside of ketosis which not everyone wants or will do. That’s a fact
 Otherwise there would not be Atkins, this program that etc

Outside of exercise Which CLEARLY most people do not do.
That’s not rocket science.
Can you explain why someone who has tried everything EXCEPT those two factors
 can NOT achieve weight-loss?
I think it’s a great question.

I think we stop losing at a certain point with certain factors thrown in and I don’t think there is any shame in being honest about it. It gives better direction where to go.

This is what I’m concluding,

Now I just told you the truth is


(Susan) #14

I was 293 back in February 2019 and now I am 202 -two years later, 91 pounds loss so far. I want to lose a lot more weight, probably down to the 130’s somewhere but I am guessing that that will take me an additional 2 years or more to get to that goal. I don’t mind that as I am on this lifestyle forever.

Many of us have found that we need to keep our carbs as low as possible, I aim for 10 or less a day and have been on Keto for over 2 years now. I also have found that I cannot eat very much dairy, very minimal if I want to lose any weight. Many of us have found that we had to eliminate all artificial sweeteners as they cause us not only to not lose weight, but even gain weight for some of us. I only ever have any alcohol on a very rare occasion as well (New Year’s Eve was the last time I have had any). I eat lunch at 1pm and supper at 4:30 and no snacking inbetween for a daily 20:4 TMAD IF. I also make sure to do a longer fast monthly (of about 100 hours as my goal on our Zornfast thread in our Fasting category where I only have plain tea/coffee/lots of water and pink himalyan salt during those days).

Some people have found that they have to go to Zero carbs (being a Carnivore) to lose weight. All of our bodies are different and we have to experiment to see what works for us. Keeping the carbs low and eating enough calories that you get from proteins and good fats is the key to success on Keto. I have been doing tons of walking, and a 45 minute exercise video daily and no cheating and I have been not losing again for a while now so I am doing another Fast at the moment. When you don’t lose for a while, try doing a Zero calorie Fast for 72+ hours, that often helps get your body moving again =).

The turtle won the race, not the hare (in the traditional children’s fable). We have to be patient.

This is very good and I totally agree with Michael --we abused our bodies for some many years. I did with Anorexia, bulimia, tons and tons of fad dieting, laxatives --heavy abuse, and Keto has been the only sustainable way of eating for me. Eat enough, on Keto you should not be hungry.

Plateaus are frustrating, so I totally understand why you are anxious and upset about it --I once didn’t lose anything for a few months of no cheating at all --but I was only eating about 500 calories a day —(summer 2019) and as soon as I went up to at least over 1200 a day, I started losing again. Please do not starve yourself and worry so much about the calories --the carbs being as low as possible is much more important =).

We are all here to encourage you and help you figure out what will help you feel happy, satiated with your foods, so that you don’t feel hungry and will start to lose weight again. I wish you the best =).


(Mg ) #15

I totally understand that. I really do. I believe that once you get low in weight
 You will come very close to stopping. Regardless what you do.

Very unpopular, however I kinda think it’s possible. I really do.

I think we believe we are in charge but we’re not. Not at all.
I think we believe we have the power to dismantle this amazing machine.
But at some point, we do not.

I think at that point, before someone stops (depending on where you’re stopping. Mine is stuck at 20) perhaps psychological help could assist.
People in record numbers quit
 Because of this. And that’s sad to me.

We do not have total control over it once we reach the point where the body says no.

Could I be wrong? Maybe
 Could I be right? I think so.
Shrug
Don’t know for absolute certainty yet


#16

I am not one, I agree 1000% on this statement :sunny:

I like this. This is why we experiment on us and other factors have to hit like our ‘work stress’ our ‘day to day life’ and how we function cause we are more than just biology now in our lives, we are ‘civilized’ living among high tension wires, or near other situations like crop dusters sending out pesticides over fields or or or ? hey it is all wild out there with what each of us do deal with ya know
 we have SO many external forces that what nature was to us is now different for each of us ya know
not saying it is be all end all ever, but at some point we have to think ‘everything’ about us ya know.

I love your wondering thinking and challenges you put to it
cool


(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #17

I agree. The control we actually have is what we do with what we’ve got. Human metabolism has evolved over several million years and the more we examine/study it the more complex and remarkable it seems! We get a notion of the way things ‘should be’ based on what? Social norms? Personal preferences? Moral qualms? Government food pyramid? Grain Growers Association of America? Then we do short-sighted, dumb stuff that gets in the way and causes problems. Most of us could use a big dose of introspective observation. :innocent:


(Mg ) #18

Thank you! I’ve had people get really mad at me.
Here is the thing.

Acceptance! If you’re healthy and just mentally programmed to look a certain way, pounds off
 Don’t matter.
Psychologically we’re a programme civilization.
It’s terrifying.
I’m flipping sick of it.

If exercise isn’t your thing. Or
 Even ketosis, and one really really tries, and they just can’t achieve it
 ACCEPTANCE.
Acceptance creates individuals with confidence.
How the world would be different if we just accepted what we tried to change, but just couldn’t


I know so many women who did AMAZING, and stopped. No matter what they tried.
And regained!
It made me furious.

The body is going to do what the body will do. We must strive for excellence but before we end up backwards
 Acceptance. That’s my opinion.

My fight, is still to figure out why. However I’ve kinda come full circle here.
If I didn’t accept it, and did the mind control thing (you must LOOK a certain way! You must! Ugh !) I would be at the gym killing myself with something I DETEST only to probably stop! And perhaps go backward

I ain’t doing it!
However I still really wanna figure out why with low carb and low Cal my body won’t budge. It’s perplexing and I’m a tenacious woman! Bwaha

Thank you so much!


(Mg ) #19

A men!


(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #20

Why are you cutting calories? What you risk by doing that is signaling to your body that there is a famine going on. Then the body hunkers down and clings to its resources, including its fat store. If you are trying to shed fat, then eating more might actually help. We have a number of people here who found it worked that way for them.

The standard advice is to keep carbohydrate intake as low as possible, eat a moderate amount of protein, and get enough fat to satisfy hunger. Insulin then rises gently when we eat and then falls during the period between meals, to let fat out of our adipose tissue to feed us. And since our hunger is satisfied, the body feels free to shed any excess fat it has accumulated.


(Mg ) #21

You have to read all my posts today to grasp it. I did I lot of writing to explain it.
I have a theory Paul. It’s only temporary,


(Mg ) #22

Everytime I try this it just isn’t moving me. I tried every type of fast, Micros, etc etc. Finally it was caloric


(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #23

There are documented cases on the books of people eating quite large quantities of food on an ad libitum ketogenic diet, who nevertheless lost fat at the same rate as the other participants in the study.

A couple of years ago, the British trainer and food activist, Sam Feltham, put himself on a 5000-calorie ketogenic diet for four weeks. He took pictures of himself each day, and the only change you can notice is that he gets a bit trimmer. He put on a couple of pounds, but a body scan revealed that he had put on something like 9 pounds of lean mass and lost 7 pounds of fat (I’m making up the numbers, but it was something like that). Looking at the pictures, I can’t imagine that he actually had any fat to lose in the first place. Mr. Feltham conducted a similar experiment on himself with a 5000-calorie high-carb, low-fat diet, with quite different results. He discusses these results on his Web site.

What all this tells me, is that, generally speaking, we don’t need to fear eating “too much,” the way we’ve all been taught. Yes, there are always going to be outliers, for whom the general advice won’t necessarily work. But why not give things a try, instead of deciding what “should” work beforehand?


(Mg ) #24

But in my warped thinking taking everything you said into account because it makes sense in logical terms - I can’t understand how at 25-30 carbs I can’t drop a pound. Remember this is NOT the first try for me Paul.

Number two how in Gods name can I then drop the caloric intake a lot, and STILL not lose a half a pound?
It’s not just been even one week, it’s more like almost three weeks following it to a tee.

There has got to be an explanation.
Ok, the carbs I get it
 I’m so adapted.
But BOTH?
Which is why I did it in the first place and kept it quiet amongst those I’m on this journey with. I wanted a clean opinion without outside input.
But come on

Now I’m speaking only about what we BELIEVE constitutes weight loss.
What we’ve come to conclude works.
My doctor can’t even explain this one.

If you really think about it
 How is it possible? I’m not having an increase in anything. I’m doing total deduction mode (at a pretty high level if I may add )of BOTH.
I mean
 The reason is all I want. At that time I’ll adjust to attempt another way.

It’s not even the last 20 at this point. It’s more than that.


#25

yea internal inflammation and fat is not seen in our ‘what size pants’ do I buy as an external bloat and more.

which is why when one drops a size in clothes with no scale loss we think, WTH? but in the end the entire body is changing from internal to external and overall leaning/healing shown thru real changes we can document.

you are what you eat and how that effects all of us from 'do we do inflammation with say leafy green things? or do we do best on mushrooms/green beans as our add and function great is SO personal to the body. Which is why some go ZC and other are Ketovore and others do very well on alot more foods etc and throw in ‘external’ life we all live
one thing it boils down to, who you are, med issues, where you are and at what point and what good changes you can get thru walking a healing path suited for you ya know.

and Paul this chat I said was not all directed at your post
it is me chatting now LOL

we can’t say this won’t or will work cause if the group says it works, doesn’t mean it will for another :slight_smile: yea even in carnivore there is massive diffs. in eating and we get that. eat for you at all times but always know when ‘things are wonky’ just go back to the most basic of eating
one can’t go wrong doing that and seeing what new adds etc they can handle.

just a walk, an acceptance of what is ME path and we all have to do it.


(Edith) #26

Maybe try a fat fast.


(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #27

Food for thought :eyes::pleading_face:


Is It Over?
#28

Your scales might be broken.

To me, all body weight scales don’t work. They are a fear based technology.

Did anybody mention getting rid of the scales? You will lose about 2 or 3 kg of life burden instantly.

If your blood test biomarkers are healthy and you fit into your skinny jeans then you are just fine to pursue other health and happiness inputs such as social connection, a life’s purpose, lifelong learning, regular walks outdoors, preferably in the company of a good listener like a Labrador.

I’m sure someone has suggested it already, stepping off the scales and gifting them to your worst neighbour. Especially that I see that Paul and Fangs have been in the mix.


#29

Have you tried testing your thyroid levels
 specifically your T3 levels?


(Mg ) #30

I have, done hormone and full blood panels 
everything is perfect. I just went on scale this morning. Again not quarter of a pound. Almost a full month now. Or somewhere close.
I actually dropped down starting last Monday to around 25 carbs a day.
Just gonna keep going and wait and see.
May take me months to get anything. I’ve become adapted to low carbs. Common sense says it has to happen. Just a matter of when.
Thank you so much


(Bob M) #31

I have a theory about this, about why some people have to restrict some calories. The body is OK with fewer calories (in terms of “metabolism”), but the feedback mechanism telling you when you are full is somewhat broken. This leads to discordance between what the body needs and what the feedback is saying.

In these people, if they cut back a bit on calories (i.e., being hungry), they actually aren’t lowering their metabolism.

Or at least this makes sense to me. (Otherwise, it doesn’t make sense.)