So what if I exceed 20gms carbs?

(Scott) #12

FWIW I may be liberal on may total carbs of <50g I am very hard core or ridgid about not “cheating”. So if out to eat there is non keto food on my plate I will eat it. They include fries with my meal I will let them sit and not touch one.

(Susan) #13

Didn’t you mean NOT eat it, Scott? =).

#14

Yes, but there’s more to it than that. 120g will most likely fill up your liver and probably some muscle glycogen, while that process is happening fat you eat may be stored at additional bodyfat… maybe it won’t. You really don’t know. If you were to eat 120g I probably wouldn’t eat again that day. When you’re first starting out doing that will really delay how long it takes you to become fat adapted. You don’t want to flip flop drastically like that. There are ways to do it strategically, but do it right until you’re fat adapted the benefits are worth it.

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #15

Some of it depends on where you are in your ketogenic journey. If you are just starting out, a high-carb day is merely going to delay your eventual fat-adaptation by some number of days. If you are fully fat-adapted, a high-carbohydrate day should make you feel crappy for a day or two, and then you’ll return to making and metabolising ketones.

Whether a high-carbohydrate day is worthwhile depends on a number of factors. If you are a carb- or sugar-addict craving a hit, you might embark on a binge that could last quite a long time. You might never, in fact, get back to eating a ketogenic diet. Many addicts find that it is far easier to abstain from their drug than to try to use it in moderation.

If you are diabetic or even just insulin-resistant, a day of high carbohydrate can send your insulin skyrocketing. Given the damage that high levels of glucose and insulin in the bloodstream can cause, it may not be the greatest idea to send them into the stratosphere. My own feeling, since I am genetically vulnerable to diabetes and heart trouble, is that I went to a great deal of effort to get my muscles into shape to metabolise fatty acids instead of glucose, so I am not particularly eager to mess them up by hitting them with a quantity of glucose.

If you don’t care about your metabolism and merely want to shed some extra fat, a high-carb day might seem like a welcome break from all that boring bacon, eggs, beef, pork, lamb, duck, goose, chicken, bison smothered in gravy made from butter and heavy cream, and broccoli smothered in cheese sauce, or salad with blue cheese dressing, but given that insulin is the fat-storage hormone and you’re trying to lose fat (if you are), why delay the process, even by only a day or two?

Ultimately, there are no rules to keto, except that if you want what we’ve got, you have to do what we did to get it. And that’s not really a rule, more like a simple law of nature.

#16

Thanks Paul, to be honest I was just giving an extreme scenario to establish some facts. In terms of my scenario it’s more likely that I might go over 20g based on eating keto friendly foods (almonds, unsweetened yogurt) and the odd thing like mayonnaise which isn’t as keto friendly. I’m not talking about bread, potatoes and pasta but more those things that are around the 15 - 20gms net carbs per 100g. I’m quite disciplined so even on the odd chance I eat a bran muffin it wouldn’t set me on a course of giving it all up. We are lucky in NZ that we don’t sugar the hell out of everything like North America, I was staggered by the unhealthy North American diet. I’m not overweight at all, and despite our better food here, I still ate too much chocolate, icecream and baking and my blood sugar were silly (I’m T.O.F.I.). So this keto thing suits me because it means I’m not eating all that unhealthy stuff and feeling better as a result. Combined with Intermittent Fasting (which is easy with 8 cups of green tea due to GTs ability to suppress the hunger hormone) it’s going well. I figure once I’m fat adapted I’ll easily be able to eat 50 - 100 carbs especially because I fast for 15hours every 24 hours… not with sugary unhealthy food, but a few oats, more almonds, carrots and mayonnaise to make coleslaw taste awesome. The feedback on this forum has been great, especially the link to Amy the keto blogger. She’s not a keto zealot, but a pragmatist who sounds a lot like me in terms of her approach! Get low carb fat adapted and you don’t need to be a Keto crazy person :slight_smile: :slight_smile: :slight_smile:

(Susan) #17

Chosen Foods Avocado Mayonnaise is Keto approved and doesn’t contain any seed oils or sugar (both of which are sheer poison for your body). There is no need to eat carbs and it is easy to keep them to 20 grams or less a day for life, or just go off on special occasions once in a while.

(Full Metal KETO AF) #18

Are you slyly implying that we’re a bunch of wing nuts here? Get with the program and get fanatical or you might lose your Club Keto Card. It’s jihad time in Carblandia!

:joy::joy::grin::cowboy_hat_face:

#19

Ha ha, not even slyly… kidding, but keeping it less extreme is a better guarantee of success - at least for me. But for some people rules are easier to follow, so I do get it, that’s why religion is popular :slight_smile:

(MooBoom) #20

I’m curious, what is it that you’re finding so extreme? Adopting a ketogenic lifestyle requires carbs to be low enough for the body to remain in ketosis. That’s not extremism, that’s just what a ketogenic way of eating requires.

You can exceed the ketogenic carbohydrate threshold, and you’ll probably bounce around in LCHF, which is still considerably better than the SAD- but not keto.

The rules are there to ensure keto is keto, not LCHF :slight_smile:

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #21

Sounds as though you are on the right track. Commercial mayonnaise may not be so good, because of the high amount of polyunsaturates in the oils they use, but mayaonnaise made at home from olive or avocado oil is perfectly fine, and delicious, too! There is even a recipe on these forums for making mayonnaise with bacon grease, for the ultimate in perfection.

It’s the metabolic advantage from being fueled by ketones and fat that we seek. The rest is all tweaks.

(John) #22

I have always tried to keep my ketogenic diet shaded towards a balanced diet. If you were to look at my plate when I am eating a full meal, you’d have a hard time thinking I was on any kind of “diet” at all, just that I am eating a healthy mix of foods in reasonable portion sizes.

It would only be if you noticed the lack of bread, potatoes, rice, or pasta that you would think something is up. But a main protein of chicken, fish, beef, or pork, with a large mixed-green salad with dressing and a side of broccoli with some butter, isn’t going to look especially extreme to anyone.

(Scott) #23

Yes I missed the NOT in will not eat it.
It’s funny. My wife is not very rigid at all and often says get the fries for me. It is not a problem for me to not touch them. If she goes above a certain weight she then starts to restrict carbs more in line with keto suggestions.

(Failed) #24

Ummm, the rules (actually guidelines would be a better word) in keto are there for good sciency reasons, not for blindly following. Comparing keto to religion is way off-base.

To get the health benefits of ketosis, you need to follow the guidelines. If you don’t follow the guidelines, your body will not reap the benefits.

(Susan) #25

This is spot on, Dee. It is not a religion at all, but it is a science based way of eating, if you don’t eat it in the proper way, you will not be in Ketosis and will not lose weight, it is that simple.

#26

Can you tell me more about this? I have under 20g of carbs for 9 months (with a few days where I went over here and there but generally kept net g low). I’d say I am fat adapted now… At least I think so? I don’t recall any tell-tale signs some other report. So how long is a “long time” before people have that flexibility do you think? When you say we can’t switch back and forth easily, do you mean it leaves some people feeling ill or that our body gets confused and stalls for days? I’m not planning on going off on a carb-binge, but I was curious for my own knowledge.

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #27

There do appear to be a lot of people who really enjoy following rules. They bring that approach to everything they get involved in, from religion to keto. In the keto world, fortunately, there are plenty of reasonable voices who can pretty much counteract the rules-based keto noise.

Unfortunately, where religion is concerned, the rigid rule-followers are very vocal people, and they give the rest of us believers a bad name. It is entirely possible to have faith in God and also use your reason. In fact, my religion actually teaches that it was God who gave reason to human beings in the first place, and we are expected to use it—though it must be admitted that many of my co-religionists appear never to have heard of that teaching, alas!

(Full Metal KETO AF) #28

@DeeCS Sometimes we have to evaluate whether the “rules or guidelines” are truth or BS. There’s lots of CICO remnants that found their way into KETO and they become partially or half true or are completely wrong. It would be easy if it were a cookie cutter situation but individual health and the amount of metabolic derangement mean we all have to find our way within those guidelines that are truth.

There are a few basic ones that everyone who wants to be in ketosis has to follow. Then there’s the guidelines concerning healing and maximizing health, which apparently isn’t on everyone’s agenda and that’s where the divide in the keto community starts IMHO. People who care about eating clean whole foods and repairing their bodies as best as possible or people only concerned with dropping pounds who are fine eating processed dirty foods IIFYM.

The only real rule is your food choices must allow you to be in ketosis.

I try sometimes to share my views with the dirty keto folks but usually they just care about weight loss. This is like the Atkins approach to me more than keto. Learning about the fuller health benefits of KETO is why I switched from a dirty Atkins diet to a clean Ketogenic diet.

:cowboy_hat_face:

#29

Wow, I’ve opened up quite the hornets nest here! However good robust debate is what helps us learn and grow from others. But sometimes ego gets in the way and we stick to our position no matter what, without consideration of the other’s thoughts as an opportunity to learn something new. So putting my ego to one side I have these thoughts. Guidelines are flexible and rules are rigid, so Dee, we agree with each other and why I’m not going to be rigid about carbs once I’m fat adapted. The famous WWII pilot for the RAF famously quoted “Rules are for the obedience of fools, and guidance for the wise”. The more insecure you are, the more you need rules, the less insecure, the more wise. It’s of no surprise to me that the fervent religious are some of the most insecure. I can say this with some qualification as a Christian for 35 years, and even a church elder! I’m now Agnostic and my openness was assisted with M. Scott Peck’s “The Road Less Traveled” book. Make sure you read the link provided by Safi where Amy lost weight without sticking strictly to keto while eating to a much lower carb diet in the USAF. David, I’m also with you on clean eating, it’s a personal choice but for health, environment and animal welfare reasons I avoid red meats, pork and processed foods. Free range chicken and fish are my forms of protein as we can’t keep raping and pillaging the planet (burning amazon jungle for beef!) with the global population being what it is. We are a bit spoilt here in NZ with some of the freshest most sustainable fish on the planet near antarctic waters, so I accept that’s it’s not so easy if you live in bloody Kansas or Wisconsin. I agree with you on the focus being too much on weight loss, there are people out there who are healthy and a bit overweight (but no obese) and skinny people who are very unhealthy. That’s why I believe 15 hours of fasting each day with keto will allow me to exceed 20gms every now and then. It might be that it’s a new concept called ‘IFKETO’ :slight_smile: just because keto has been discovered doesn’t mean there’s not other ways of eating that will be discovered. But for some people, once they’ve found something (a religion) they lose their openness to change. Two quotes I like are “only the closed mind is certain” and “middle age is when an open mind and narrow waste swap places”.
I love my diet of bowls full of brocolli, mushrooms, olives, peppers stuffed with goats cheese and this whole range of awesome keto foods, that I wouldn’t have discovered without investigating Keto. I do think that balance is key, and you can’t just be on Keto and fire up your petrol guzzling V8 to go to the shops, and sit on your ass watching netflix all day, you need to keto and walk 30 - 60mins a day and still eat meat in moderation. My view is that keto alone isn’t going to keep you healthy, exercise and some IF is crucial to feel like a million bucks! It’s great to meet you all and I’ve learnt a lot from this forum!

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #30

Let’s cut to the chase. Here’s the bottom line. You can eat whatever you like. A wise and smart man, however, will keep the following in mind. There is no essential carbohydrate, thus no necessary nutrient that is not available in fat and/or protein. Carbohydrate is another name for sugar; our metabolism produces all the sugar (glucose) we need so there is no need to eat it. Eating sugar in anything more than insignificant and incidental quantities introduces risk of metabolic disorder and disease. Maintaining ketosis brings a host of healthful benefits. Eating carbs not so much. As always, your mileage may vary.

Easy meal planning and prep?
(Full Metal KETO AF) #31

I could spend a lot of time talking with you. You’re interesting but we have not as much in common diet wise as you might think. I am here from a health crisis place. I am tight with keeping my carbs below 20 net except occasionally when I drift into the twenties now and then, and I do that with zero worry or guilt. However I wish to stay in ketosis as much as possible so I have only eaten off plan a few times in a year.

I could argue with you about your unhealthy, unsustainable ruining the rainforest beef phobia all day. Agricultural farming is what’s destroying our environment and planet, not cows or grazing pastures. I eat mostly Australian grass fed lamb and beef almost everyday and chicken way less often because I believe it has a lot less to offer nutritionally than ruminant animals and wild caught oily fish (which I don’t eat a lot of because of mercury, chemical and micro plastic pollution). Excessive chicken means too much omega6. I’m getting ready for a Carnivore trial period to find out if I have hidden autoimmune issues. I would have never considered this a good idea one year ago but my views keep changing as I learn and now I believe it might be the most healthy diet for many people, especially people with severe or stubborn autoimmune issues to find out what makes them sick. I am curious how I will feel on a zero carb diet.

IF is powerful indeed, I am on a 19/5 schedule everyday with occasional social deviations from that. I don’t generally eat past 3pm. I believe that lots of the people who think they’re just fat and not in some stage of diabetes developing are usually misguided, those are rare people who can be obese but not developing diabetes. It’s never really diagnosed until you already have it, pre diabetic is the “you almost need insulin” warning. And you can change in one month. There’s actually a greater number of thin people who are getting diabetes than obese people who aren’t developing it and who would guess because diabetics are fat, right?

Topics often go into debate mode here because we all are in different situations and levels of understanding keto. I’m learning all the time that you have to absorb what you can and sometimes I change my position as new ideas take hold. So lots of healthy arguments here, that’s what a forum is for. Sorting through the BS and looking for the truth. :cowboy_hat_face: