So just how Keto is your food? Or does it matter?

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#21

wrong cause you must know meat/fat protein is only required for life…survival…to thrive…and we are ‘putting current lifestyle of times gone by’ with big carb intake thru agric. etc into this but simpliest fact is we can survive ONLY on protein but if very low fat intake, we get weaker. Our meat gives us ALL thru nose to tail but if we have lower fat intake vs. what our bodies expend etc ‘thru old time life movement’ then we could perish but we got a darn good great chance of surviving vs. not. And plants give us the backup to eat while we find the better hunt issue.

We are not then. We 'won’t ever be ‘old times’ again but body science says one thing, protein and fat are key to life, not ONE carb is required ever but if we need to survive thru life then a carb might come into play vs death or survival ya know.

NO ONE CAN EAT TOO MUCH PROTEIN EVER! this irks me to no end BUT IN THE world it is today with the crap food ingested, yea I get your statement and it chills me to the very core of my last bone…It is and always be the side food that wrecks one! One drinking coffee or tea or water with lemon?..IS ANY of that real life now? On the hunt and real food? It is our 'current menu of add in some lc ketchup, tad of processed mayo and ‘our spice blends’ in a bottle, eating fried foods in hyrdo oil when out and about, adopting some 'extras we like, example is yogurt or dairy which was not ever ‘out to be hunted’ and more or add in ALL the fake sweetners we think is good and then add the ‘fruit that is not of our season in this country’ but accessible by plain/train/auto…so what we add and in todays foods we always BIG CHEAT THE REAL TRUTH.

but it is what it is ya know for now and we can only do the best we can.

(Vic) #22

This is a bit of a puzzle, here is an idea on the subject.

Assumptions:
-Ketone body’s are the prefered fuel source.
-BHB in the blood is an excess of fuel available, the cells have temporarily no space for it.
-Low to very levels of ketones are always present is human cells.
-low levels of ketones in the blood do not get very far, they are absorbed quickly, thus undetectable by ketone meters.

-the most energy efficient amount of ketones in the blood is very low,

The body strives to make just enough so that in the venous blood there is none left.

When eating small amounts of carbs the glucose absorbed in the blood needs priority. Thus the ketones have to wait, now they become detectable in the venous blood.

Carnivores eat the most appropriate diet, the body can therefore run the most efficient. Meaning by the time the Arterial blood has done its job there are not a lot of ketones left to be pointlessly carried to the lungs thru the veins.

Just an idea, nothing else :wink:

(Bob M) #23

Sounds like a good idea to me.

I have similar thoughts. I think the body simply gets used to using ketones, and does not need to “overdo” them after a while. Those people at the start of a keto/carnivore diet (coming from a high carb diet) can get very high ketones, which may be because the body has a hard time using them. Dare I say “ketone resistance”? I think I coined a new term!

But I think over time that “ketone resistance” drops to near zero for some of us.

For people like those tribes, they have been keto/carnivore their entire lives. They never have had ketone resistance, and I would expect they would have very low blood ketone values.

(Heather Meyer) #24

If no one can eat too much protein ever,then how come Drs are so worried about us over-taxing our kidneys from eating too much protein? :thinking::face_with_monocle:

#25

all studies that are not all protein and fat studies. all studies are truly not long term ever and most are SAD menus
no real truth ever but those Eskimos sure survived millenia on it LOL

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #26

@Carnivoor @ctviggen

I agree that over time ketone synthesis gets more in sync with ketone usage so you find less floating around in transit. Newbies can get high blood ketones simply because cells aren’t using it efficiently yet. Too bad there’s not much prospect for a home continuous ketone monitor. What I would like to know, for example, is how the brain utilizes ketones/glucose after one’s been in ketosis for multiple years. Is the camp represented by Ali correct - ketones can only provide up to about 75% of energy; or the camp represented by Bikman - ketones can provide it all if you give it to them. Or what @PaulL suggested in another topic when he noted that glucose metabolism in the brain can be broken enough to cause various problems - assuming that’s correct, how ketones take up the slack and/or help heal the glucose metabolism.

(Bob M) #27

Actually, I just saw a post from someone (Georgia Ede?) about a continuous ketone monitor, similar to the Free Style Libre CGM. It’s coming, though I don’t know when it’ll actually get here.

As for the brain’s use of ketones as fuel:

This has a list of topics, but not a transcription. (Sorry, Michael, maybe you need to find more time in the car to listen? :wink:)

Here’s her website:

https://www.keto.swiss/

Unfortunately, you can’t buy the product, or at least I can’t figure out how to buy it. I’d like to test it on my mother (heart issues) and others (e.g., with Alzheimer’s).

Heck, I’d test it on myself to see what happens.

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #28

I think there are a couple of issues here that get overlooked.

First, it certainly is possible to eat too much protein - if you’re not also eating either fat or carbs. This results in so-called ‘protein poisoning’, aka rabbit starvation. When protein is used as fuel rather than construction supplies (because you’re not eating fat or carbs) it takes more energy to metabolize it to fuel than the amount of fuel energy you get out of it as a result. Thus, if used as the sole fuel source you slowly and steadily starve to death. This is why increasing protein and decreasing either carbs or fat in one’s diet can help increase one’s metabolic rate and enhance fat burn.

Two, on the other hand, if you consume mostly carbs for fuel the insulin/glucagon ratio will be very high and lead to protein being converted via gluconeogenesis to glucose and stored as fat. If you eat high enough carbs gluconeogenesis gets suppressed (the carbs get stored as fat) and I think - not sure - some protein still gets converted to glucose, some gets utilized as expensive fuel, but a lot starts getting dumped (ammonia scented urine, breath, sweat, etc).

If you consume mostly fat for fuel the insulin/glucagon ratio will be very low and lead to excess protein beyond what is needed for both maintenance/growth and repair (other stuff - protein is used to make enzymes, hormones, etc), being utilized as additional fuel and the primary backbone utilized by gluconeogenesis to synthesize the very small amount of necessary glucose. This is why increasing protein while in ketosis results in boosting one’s metabolism, using protein as fuel increases the need for additional fat fuel - which can come from your body as well as your plate. And why eating more protein and pumping iron is a great way to lose fat weight.

If you’re consistently in ketosis it’s pretty difficult to eat ‘too much’ protein - ie to the point of stinking of ammonia. That’s because you most likely will have reached satiety and stopped eating before you got to that point.

I’m not clear yet on all the details of protein metabolism - I read more about fat metabolism - so if anyone can elaborate on this, please do so. Thanks.

(Laurie) #29

@Finishingtouches I wasn’t aware that keto recipes tend to be high fat. My guess is that they are trying to fulfill the macros, so that the meal will be “balanced,” keto wise.

Of course, a person could always use a lower-fat recipe and supplement with a fatty food if they feel the need. But I guess the recipe developers try to keep it simple for a large audience. Many people are used to pasta dishes, casseroles, etc., and aren’t sure what to do with a pork chop or a pound of ground beef when they start keto.

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #30

Well that’s cool if it actually happens!

:oncoming_automobile: I’d first need to get one. Aside from being so long (I balk even at YouTube videos that run over 15 minutes), the main thing I don’t like about podcasts is probably what you don’t like about videos, the stuff goes by too fast and you can’t relisten without ‘stopping and rewinding’.

I’ll check out the website you linked. If she’s selling exogenous ketones, however, I’ll likely bail quickly.

PS: The blog looks interesting so I’ll check out that to see what I can find. Thanks!

(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #31

I agree. There are no rules, even though there are some “you’d damn well betters”!

People only need so much protein, and too much can cause problems. Fat is the macro that has the least effect on insulin, causing just enough to be secreted to ensure our survival (remember that we are not anti-insulin just anti-too-much-insulin, lol!). And yes, it should be “fat to satiety,” as Dr. Phinney puts it. But the body has ways of adjusting to higher intake. For example, I know I overate during the day if I sweat a lot at night. That’s one of my body’s ways of getting rid of excess energy.

(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #32

We cannot live on protein alone. Certain fats are essential to the diet, just as certain amino acids are essential. That was demonstrated a long time ago. However, if you mean we can live on meat alone, I would certainly agree.

This is not strictly true. The body has a limited capacity to store amino acids, and the excesss need to be deaminated and dealt with. This leaves the body with a great deal of nitrogen to dispose of. Some of it can be used to regulate blood pressure, but the rest has to be disposed of. If you eat so much protein that your uric acid cycle gets overwhelmed by the ammonia, then you are at risk of ammonia toxicity, which can be fatal. So I would argue that too much protein is indeed a possibility. Now, most people are going to want to stop eating well before that point, but it can be done, especially with supplements.

(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #33

Dr. Phinney has indicated that he thinks too much protein can inhibit ketogenesis. I don’t recall hearing him ever discuss the mechanism, however.

#34

yes meant to type meat :slight_smile:
protein and meat are same to me in that meat protein provides most fat we must have I do type that fast sometimes

a bit of ‘rabbit starvation’ can come into play but OLD times we ate IT ALL from organs to brain to blood and more…newer times we HAVE TONS of other crap food that just supply some fat/nutrition and more for other issues.

NO ONE IS getting too much protein to cause ever an issue in this day and age unless one is ‘way into some very narrow medical issue or lifestyle’ that just for the most part never comes into play.

too much protein, nope not nowadays but I sure see on the net all the time that someone sucking down fresh veg causes toxicity of some kind, or vegan raw fruit etc causes deficiencies…yet to see the ‘big protein overload’ posts out there just yet LOL and you would think US Carnivores would be the heavy protein overload people yet we thrive, go figure HAHA

nope, can’t convince me on this one but a few shades of gray in there, of course.

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #35

Just throwing this out as a possibility. Protein in excess of whatever is required for maintenance and repair, etc gets metabolized for fuel but because this takes more energy than fat metabolism some of the energy going there gets redirected. If enough energy gets redirected, fat metabolism stops. If there’s still more protein to deal with then ammonia issues start to arise and the metabolism just starts to dump it by any/all means. Maybe?

(Vic) #36

40% to 50% of calories in rabbit is from fat, the rest is protein.

Ok, its a bit lean for meat but its putting fish to shame.

Fish can be 90% proteins and 10% of calories from fat.

Never heard of fish starvation? It should be super famous.

(Polly) #37

See Ken Berry on this topic!

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #39
  • Wild raw rabbit meat: fat cals = 18% Source
  • Wild cooked rabbit meat: fat cals = 18% Source
  • Domestic raw rabbit meat, various cuts: fat cals = 37% Source
  • Domestic cooked rabbit meat, various cuts: fat cals = 37% Source & Source

Obviously whether it’s wild or domestic makes a big difference. I suspect the difference in fat between wild and domestic is caused primarily by the different levels of activity. Wild rabbits get lots of vigorous exercise, while domestic rabbits spend most of their lives confined in a cage.

  • Wild raw salmon: fat cals = 31% Source
  • Wild smoked salmon: fat cals = 33% Source
  • Wild raw herring: fat cals = 52% Source
  • Wild cooked herring: fat cals = 52% Source

I find interesting the numbers for wild rabbit. A total absence of fat is not necessary to result in protein poisoning, ie rabbit starvation.

#40

I wouldn’t want rabbit starvation syndrome, there is essential fats and it’s known there is such a thing as too much protein, some people on this very forum experienced that. Most of us simply don’t reach our own limits. I eat high protein, I am not afraid of that but I still need more fat than protein even when I eat a quite modest amount of food. Some people get away with less fat that protein but fat is still very important, the more energy we need on keto, the more.

Some people has a condition where they need to eat pretty low-protein. Others are able to overeat even their way more high limits for protein. I saw example for both cases in this forum.

Well “zillion” was an exaggeration on my part now that I read what I wrote before :slight_smile: Living on protein with a nice energy deficit, I only would eat 4 times as much protein as I like to have when moderately active (it’s probably more than enough but let’s be safe) and maybe 6-8 times my actual need…? That’s a bit much even for my body. I am a human…

That’s something very different. Yep, only meat seemingly works.

I am a simple one, protein means protein to me, carbs mean carbs (sometimes net carbs).
Meat is fatty protein to me but far from “protein”. I get lots of fat from my meat and I eat the same amount of protein without meat too…

(Vic) #41

Nice picking, the fattyest fish you could find?

Those 2 seasonal fishes are exceptions. Most fishes are very lean.