Sir David Attenborough - A life on our planet documentary - Planet saving diet?

meat

(Doug) #21

Didn’t the Pleistocene end, by definition, when the Holocene began?

The timing of the ending of the Holocene - :smile: - I think we’re our own worst enemy for a huge number of generations before any meaningful global cooling will occur. And stuff happens so fast, nowadays… I’d love to see mammoths, though, even by bringing them back via genetic material, if we’ve got any.

I’m all for pastoral scenes of grazing animals; I just don’t think there’s much ‘slack’ in the system - we’re already using 77% of all agricultural land for livestock, and there’s not much other habitable land that’s not forested, urban, etc. - areas that could be made into pasture.

Last week at my dad’s place.


(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #22

I’m at work and can’t type much on my iPod so must wait until I’m home later. We are still in the Pleistocene and the Holocene temps peaked 6-8 k years ago. We are currently in the coolest period of the Holocene and there’s nothing to suggest the decline will stop. More later.


(UsedToBeT2D) #23

I think we all should/could do more to reduce our impact on the earth and her resources, but if I am dead because of chronic illness from a poor diet, then I haven’t gained much.
Actually, I think I waste a lot less food eating Keto than my old SAD. I certainly don’t eat as much and I don’t poop as much, and that makes a positive difference. IMHO.


(UsedToBeT2D) #24

How many resources could we save if we didn’t have to devote so many to pharmaceuticals and healthcare related to an industrialize diet and related disease? Like those electric scooters in the supermarket. Pretty sad when you need a electric tricycle to shop for your Cheerios and pasta.


(Doug) #25

I agree - no question about it! :clap:


(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #26

When geologists first deduced that the current age had been preceded by wide-spread glaciation across the entire northern hemisphere they erroneously concluded that the glaciation had ended and the earth had entered a new geologic period. Subsequently, they named the period of glaciation the Pleistocene epoch and the current period the Holocene epoch as subdivisions of the Quaternary period. This they initially dated as approx 1.6 million years ago, later modified to 2.6 million years.

An ‘epoch’ is defined as having distinct geologic characteristics that distinguish it from the epoch that precedes and the epoch that follows. Upon further examination, study and understanding, during the 20th century it became evident that the geologic conditions that gave rise to the Pleistocene epoch had not changed.

Those conditions involved primarily two regions of the Cordillera, the southern end where South America and Antarctica were connected and the central gap in the mountains that allowed Pacific water to flow freely into the Atlantic via the Caribbean Sea. The first condition was the insulation of Antarctica when the southern Cordillera subsided allowing the Drake Passage to open between the tip of South America and Antarctica approx 23 million years ago. As the mountains sank deeper, the Drake Passage expanded the distance of open water between the two land masses, an Antarctic circumpolar current became established. The circumpolar current isolated Antarctica, preventing warmer water from equatorial regions reaching the continent. Thus isolated, the continent began to cool. By approx 15 million years ago the continent was essentially totally glaciated. This was the beginning of glaciation but confined to the southern polar region. Prior to the discovery of Antarctica in 1820, this southern glaciation was unknown to science and it was 80 years more before exploration of the continent began.

The second condition was closing the Isthmus of Panama between approx 3.5 to 3 million years ago when the central Cordillera uplifted, first as a series of isolated islands and finally as a solid wall of mountains. The closing of the Isthmus changed the ocean currents of the Atlantic dramatically, cutting off warm equatorial water from the Pacific.

There are multiple hypotheses about how exactly these two conditions resulted in the Pleistocene glaciation of the northern hemisphere. But the stage was set and the northern glaciers appeared.

Nothing has changed geologically: Antarctica is still insulated and the Isthmus is still closed. There is no indication that either situation is going to change any time soon. In addition, geologists have discovered that periodically during the Pleistocene glaciation, brief ice-free or nearly ice-free periods occurred at approx 100-125 k year intervals, each lasting approx 10-15 k years. The last one before the Holocene was the Eemian which lasted from 130 - 115 k years ago. So we know now that the Holocene is not a new epoch at all, just another in a series of periodic glacial minima interspersed between the Pleistocene glacial maxima. It will end.


(Doug) #27

Sounds to me then that there shouldn’t be a Holocene at all.


(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #28

It’s a distinct glacial minimum and it’s our glacial minimum. Fortunately for us, humans have evolved to the point of being able to take advantage of this min whereas during previous minima we were not. For example the Eemian was warmer and longer than the Holocene to date. But humans couldn’t do much with it. Conventional dating puts us close to 15 k years into the Holocene which would mean we are probably getting near the end. But that dating includes the Younger Dryas anomaly.

A viable alternative in my opinion is to consider the 2-3 k years preceding the Younger Dryas as a Dansgaard–Oeschger event rather than the end of the last glacial max. That would make the Younger Dryas a return to normal max conditions rather than a cold anomaly that nearly knocked out the Holocene in round one. In that case, we’d only be about 11-12 k years into the Holocene which gives us 2-3 k more years to make the best of it before the next max hits.


#29

It was as dryas a salted cod’s tonsil here last summer.

OK, since we are all going to live for 2000 years due to our WOE we best get prepared for this (note: Aristotle got ageing wrong). Long term planning is not a human strength.


(Doug) #30

And we’re certainly helping that ‘minimum’ along. :smile:

Michael, about the epochs - I’m just saying that if indeed we’re still in the Pleistocene, then there should not be a Holocene at all, or we should demote the Holocene to an ‘age’ or ‘stage.’ If defined both as epochs, they can’t co-exist.

All right then. How much agreement on that, around the world, do you think there is?

Ha! No doubt… What we are good at is some serious effort once we’re pushed to the brink. So, like if aliens invade our planet. In the realm of climate/resources (especially water) - it would be fascinating to see that far into the future. My opinion is that it’s going to be one massively bumpy ride.


(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #31

In geology there are disagreements about pretty much everything, including whether or not the Pleistocene has actually ended. You can be very sure about: 1) there have been no significant geologic changes since the Pleistocene began 2.5+ million years ago that would suggest the Pleistocene epoch has ended and a new epoch started; and, 2) there have been numerous periods of less glaciation throughout the Pleistocene glacial event and the Holocene looks like just another. And, 3) the Holocene’s warmest period ended 6+ k years ago and the earth has been cooling from that peak ever since. For 2-3 k years of the Holocene Climate Optimum, the Arctic Ocean was ice free for most of each year. It has frozen over again since then.

Also important is that of the five glacial events that have occurred on earth (that we can find evidence for) the Pleistocene glacial event is the coldest of them all. The cooling actually began 65 million years ago. As I mentioned above, once the southern circumpolar current isolated Antarctica from warm tropical currents glaciation began there. When warm tropical Pacific water was cut off from entering the Atlantic, the north Atlantic started cooling. North eastern NA is where the northern hemisphere glaciation began. And where most of the remnants remain.

There has been ice on the surface of the planet for 25 million years already. When the planet was not in an ‘Ice Age’ previously there was no ice on the surface. Until the mid-Cenozoic an ice free surface has been the predominant condition of earth.


(Gregory - You can teach an old dog new tricks.) #32

But… but…

What about the polar bears?

:grin:


(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #33

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #34

For anyone who’s interested. This is not too technical for general understanding. I don’t necessarily agree with all the details, but overall I think it’s a good description.


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