Signs of autophagy?

(Kristen Ann) #2

Following!

#3

From what I could find it starts around 6 hours of not eating.

(Eric - The patient needs to be patient!) #4

Ben

Superficial ones: Skin tags disappearing. Loose skin tighten up. Grey hair turning back to normal hair color (I have that one). Age spots getting smaller turning back to normal skin color.

Dr. Bosworth says check your fasted bg (mg/dL)/ketone (mmol/L) ratio. 70-100 likely autophagy. <40 strong autophagy. <20 super strong autophagy. These is a derived value from some research paper.

So no good way. I expect there will be ways to test directly in the coming years. There are >1,000 papers each of the last 3 years showing up in pubmed on autophagy each year. There is a lot of interest in this topic.

Can keto reverse gray hair?
(In Rochester NY USA, lovin life) #5

I thought I had more hairs coming back in with darker color but thought it was just wish full thinking, I’ll keep wishing and thinking :grinning:

(Scott) #6

Well I have skin tags so I can monitor that if I start fasting. On the hair thing I can only monitor that if I start growing some unless I just focus on mt back hair (eww)

(Eric - The patient needs to be patient!) #7

TMI

(Doug) #8

I wish, TFG… :slightly_smiling_face: Have to get the stomach and small intestine emptied out, then a while goes by - the ‘post-absorptive phase’ - and then glycogen gets depleted. After that is when autophagy can be really ramping up. If it’s before 24 hours, cool, and maybe toward the end of the first day we’re getting some increase, especially coming from a keto diet where glycogen should already be low.

From the website you linked to:

“To know whether or not you’re more anabolic or catabolic or more mTOR or AMPK activated, you can measure your insulin to glucagon ratio.”

There will be such variability there that as stated it’s wrong. We know that having been eating ketogenically or not makes an enormous difference there - as in the excellent video (on Youtube among other places) - Dr. Benjamin Bikman - ‘Insulin vs. Glucagon: The relevance of dietary protein’

The response to eating protein is vastly different, coming from either a high-carb or very low-carb context. There was a 70 to 1 difference in the changing of that insulin/glucagon ration between the two groups, after eating protein. Thus, one could be still profoundly anabolic, eating ketogenically and just plain eating, period - and think one had more autophagy going on than a carb-burner who had fasted for a day.

The site is right about mTOR and AMPK signaling, but just plugging in the insulin/glucagon ratio will be useless. At the least, it would need to be calibrated for a keto diet or not, and for the individual - one’s degree of insulin resistance will affect the ratio.

Overall, the insulin/glucagon ratio gets more favorable for autophagy through at least 4 to 6 days of fasting, for both keto eaters and otherwise. mTOR and AMPK are nutrient sensors, and it is the lack of protein and carbohydrates that they’re mostly concerned with. Fat, especially a little bit, isn’t going to do much.

(Bob M) #9

I can get near 1 without much fasting. To get to 20, that would take multiple days of fasting, 4+.

(Bob M) #10

Sorry, I meant near 100 without much fasting.

(Bob M) #11

Or glucagon resistance. They theorize Jimmy Moore has glucagon resistance, as he has hypoglycemia with too much protein or fat intake.

And who can get these measured anyway?

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #12

Eric, please don’t take this personally, but I hate you.
#STILLNOTBLONDYET

(Alexandru Radu) #13

Hello brother. Impressive results ! what do you mean by <20 g ? I wanna try but I don’t know what means <20 g?

thank you

(Bob M) #14

Less than 20 grams of carbs per day.

(Eric - The patient needs to be patient!) #15

My original message is the Dr Bosworth ratio <20 not g of carbs

Dr. Bosworth says check your fasted bg (mg/dL)/ketone (mmol/L) ratio. 70-100 likely autophagy. <40 strong autophagy. <20 super strong autophagy. These is a derived value from some research paper.

(Bob M) #16

Hmm…based on that scale, I only get into “strong autophagy” if I fast >4 days. At my last 4.5 day fast, I had BG of 76 and ketones of 1.9, so that’s 40…after 4.5 days fasting. I no longer get high ketones after being low carb/keto 4.5 years. After 2.5 days of fasting, I only got ketones of 0.6 in the morning. And that’s starting at 0.5 days with 0.2 ketones (which is my normal level in the mornings now). I do “gain” ketones as the day passes, meaning my ketone readings go up over the day. My highest values are at night.

So, I’d take that scale with a grain of salt. It might work for newbies, but doesn’t seem to work well for me.

(PJ) #17

It makes perfect sense your ketones are low in the morning and higher at night @ctviggen (Bob). The Dawn effect for glucose makes it much higher in the morning.

The way I was showed for the GKI formula it’s glucose / ketones / 18. Your # comes out as 2.2 in that. The chart I have is:

GKI ref
0-1 autophagy (rapid fat and lean loss)
1-3 deep ketosis (rapid fat & some lean loss)
3-6 nutritional ketosis (fat loss)
6-9 mild ketosis (maintenance)
9+ anabolic (weight gain)

formula: (glucose/ketones)/18=0.0

(Bob M) #18

I agree that this is a guideline. It’s just that if I have higher blood sugar and lower ketones in the morning, so I’m lower on the scale, but higher ketones and lower blood sugar in the evening, so I’m higher on that scale, do I really have lower autophagy in the morning and higher in the evening? I kinda think that’s not true.

To select a random day:

image
image.png1385×89 5.55 KB

The number to the right of the time is blood ketones (keto mojo), then ketones by PrecisionXtra (none these times), then ketonix (42), then blood sugar by Free Style Libre. BBS = body by science (weightlifting to failure), HIIT = High intensity interval training. So, I lifted weights and did the treadmill, and my autophagy went down? I find that hard to believe.

So, as a guideline, it’s useful, but if you want specific instances, I do not think it’s accurate.

(PJ) #19

I see what you mean.

I’m a big DMSO fan too btw. :slight_smile: Would probably have killed myself without it during a couple years before my surgery.

(Susan) #20

I really hope all these fasts over time will help me with getting rid of skin tags, that will be awesome. I have tied off some and let them fall off, burned one off myself with a dangerous thing I bought that was supposed to be for that but was a disaster and had to go to the doctor and get medication for the results of that.

#21

Just go to the doctor and get them snipped off. Did that a few years ago getting about 12 cut off with scissors. :smiley: