The sympathetic and parasympathetic nervous system pathways are part of our human nervous system. An important thing they regulate is stress.
The parasympathetic state is the rest, relax and digest state of being.
The sympathetic state is the action-ready state. There may be an external threat or stressful task, or, with humans, a remembered threat or trauma, a trigger to put a person into sympathetic mode - flight, fight, freeze or freak-out.
So, I guess this topic speaks toward “when” we eat. It could be seen as a form of time-aware feeding. It could be boxed into the fasting area?
Let’s get “stress eating” on the table and out of the way. Eating when stressed is a norm in modern society. An example is eating when driving. Driving is a potentially stressful activity in many different forms. Do the worst road ragers start with a wave and spit of a fast food wrapped trigger food as part of their wind up? Maybe they wave their phone at a bad lane change, the device they can’t take their eyes from that just fed them a triggering social media post or “news” report? The thoughts do lean toward an addiction to addiction labeling.
Comfort food is a red flag term , initially in this ideation rather than actual soothing comfort. Especially if it is a regular first option taken. It may be good to recognise it as such. It also depends on what the food is. You may be eating wolf when you thought you wanted to eat lamb.
Increased stress and compulsive behaviour associated with negative emotions set off a hormonal cascade that drives blood glucose higher, so it is ready for whatever human explosion (or emotional implosion) is expected. If there is no physical exertion that results, then the elevated blood glucose is potentially toxic in the blood stream, so the body spikes insulin to get it stored safely away as body fat.
So, the idea I’m postulating here may explain a few things like apparent plateaus in weight loss plans, or getting fatter “while doing everything right, and recording and measuring all the inputs and outputs”. It may help explain pandemic poundage, the weight gain associated with the fear during the pandemic.
The time to eat may be when the body is in the rest, relax and ready to digest parasympathetic mode. Combined with a low carbohydrate way of eating, aiming for a relaxed state at the time of eating might be a good biohack to a healthier way of life?
Social cooking or food preparation rituals, winding down after a busy day, off loading and processing events in a relaxed warm kitchen, setting a table, putting some slower tempo music on, lower lighting, (this sounds like a romantic date), a few positive words of gratitude or thanks shared before a meal, these may all set the best environment in which to eat, and, in their timing, when to eat.
I can’t write as nice as you (your comments are very often a treat :D) and I may not understand exactly what are you asking but I had some thoughts after reading…
I actually need a relaxed environment to eat. That’s why I ate my main meal at late when I worked all day. Even if I stayed late, I went home at 9:30pm and started to cook…
Too bad my hunger didn’t aligned with that late mealtime but I managed it with some tiny not proper meal(s) at work.
I think I am the opposite of a comfort eater? Not exactly, I can imagine my mind chooses feeding when it’s the only available way of joy (my inner hedonist need its nourishment) but joy is almost everywhere so it must be a very dark time when food is such important. Though it’s highly important, one of my most important source of joy and I doubt it ever will change. It’s very hedonistic as we need to eat anyway so I can enjoy almost every day to some extent.
Losing all my appetite (more like going into pretty serious negatives so eating is totally impossible, I want anything but that) when I am stressed is way stronger. It’s hard for me to be down enough for that and it’s never long living (I never ever lost fat due to hard times… except when I had no money and starved for 11 days in a house in 8 Celsius… it was interesting and I wasn’t cold or hungry much, my body is a hedonist too so it keeps me from suffering if possible) but it’s typical short term when I am very sad or upset or anything like that.
My feeding isn’t fully aligned with “rituals” either. I like to eat when I feel a properly high urge to do it. It’s a bit tricky nowadays because I tend not to feel such urges. I don’t know how to handle those things yet but a nice relaxed environment is important for me and I surely will wait for a good reason to eat. If my body and mind is against it, forcing myself isn’t good even if I think I should eat already… I learned that this week.
Our society today is ‘all wrapped’ up around food for many of us out there!
We are shown food 24/7 from tv and radio commercials to billboards to…you name it, they want you to buy it LOL
On stress tho, big stress can shut down a person’s eating if truly in that zone of disaster, but smaller stress is what alot of people do try to eat away.
Took me years and years to figure out how to combat alot of the comfort eating, the social aspect of using food as entertainment, deal with little stressors in a healthy fashion vs hitting a fast food drive thru window and scarfing down food.
So yea all of these emotions etc are wrapped into our food use.
Remember old days…when a holiday came it was super special because you had foods that the family never made everyday, or couldn’t get the meats/etc. wanted for that holiday cause you didn’t have the money to make fancy meals and more…none of that is special almost anymore cause food is in your face, you can get anything, any time, stuff sent in the mail ordered online if you want it Nothing is put into that special category anymore and loses its real value ya know. Food and treats were special…like making your ice cream, not a daily occurence for most so when that porch family ice cream was made it was OH so special and you enjoyed it, now you can buy 1/2 gallons of ice cream in a flash and hound it all down if you want…nothing special there ya know.
Now my food is thought of as 'what is healthy for me to thrive ’ to navigate thru the health issues as I get older…so here food is taking on another symbol for me instead of comfort or ‘used’ in other ways in my life.
hmm, interesting thread FB cause we are all at different points on ‘how to use food’ in our lives and how are we going to get thru changes to our thoughts about how food interacts with us.
I have to admit, I am terrible at sitting down to eat and only eat. If I eat breakfast, I eat standing while I’m getting ready for the day. I eat my lunch at my desk when I’m at work. Dinner is the only meal for which I sit down and think about the food and family. This past week my husband was out of town, so I didn’t even really do it for dinner either.
It’s funny you brought this up, because it is something I’ve been thinking about lately. I’ve just been really full of energy. Maybe it’s because I sit on my tush for many hours at work, but sitting down to eat has been almost an inconvenience. I It’s something I’ve been considering remedying. I should be working on mindful eating.
Coffee, an addiction, and food, a can of worms revisited. These next thoughts need verification.
Coffee may induce the release of cortisol, the stress hormone. Does coffee put our bodies into a sympathetic state by chemical means?
Coffee is a stimulant by its action as an adenosine blocker.
Should coffee drinking be separated from eating time wise?
If that is the case, are their times to avoid coffee?
PaulL
(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?)
#7
I have learned two very important lessons about coffee from these forums: First, coffee should be avoided at all costs on keto, because it inhibits ketogenesis and fatty acid metabolism. And second, coffee is very helpful on keto, because it stimulates ketogenesis and promotes fatty acid metabolism.
Notice, however, that the word is “coffee” and not “caffeine,” which means your tea is irrelevant to this discussion. It’s obviously something in the coffee other than the caffeine that has the effect on keto (whatever that effect may be, lol!). But no one ever says what that mysterious ingredient is, alas!
Except for those of us drinking Pu-Erh, which supposedly is a potent SCD inhibitor.
Though I note that I was drinking Pu-Erh tea (usually 1 cup/day, sometimes 2 cups, very rarely 3 cups) while trying the croissant diet…and gaining over 20 pounds.
so decaf tea or coffee is better or is it most do worse on coffee cause they add butter and MCT or cream or ?? and on tea they seem to ‘add nothing’ maybe…I am ?? on this one LOL
Coffee is a bean, a ‘seed’ so alot more on that vs. tea which is a boiled down leaf? Again ?
hmmm…
PaulL
(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?)
#10
My point was that they never say “caffeine affects ketosis,” they always say "coffee affects ketosis." I don’t know why, but if it were really the caffeine that affected ketosis, I’m sure they would say so, and they would be talking about tea as well as coffee.
And my real point was that I don’t think anyone really knows what effect coffee has on ketosis, because you read so many contradictory things. And again, since they never mention the effect of tea on ketosis, it can’t be caffeine that is the issue.
I like both coffee and tea, and I drink both, and I don’t notice any effect on ketosis from either of them. But then, I’m not looking for it, either, so who knows?
I feel so very lucky I don’t see and hear anything like that most of the time… I simply never watch tv (my home has no tv since decades) or a not “music and some talk only” radio and I see no billboards unless I travel far…
Not like most of those food could tempt me much nowadays Maybe some nice roast… But I eat those anyway.
But all those ads would overload me with information, I don’t handle that well.
What, isn’t holidays the same now?
Sure, not for me as I frankly just don’t have holidays especially not doing things much differently food wise. I always eat what I want and can…
I disliked holiday cooking as a bigger kid (the food was good just insanely too much and made Mom to a stressed creature and me too, a bit. forced to eat food is one of the worst things that could happen to me. I hate wasting food but my stomach is the same on holidays and my appetite is significantly smaller due to the pressure… starving in a peaceful, very cold house was loads better) and I pretty much dislike them now when I visit a relative (my SO’s Mom cooks great things, she could tempt me with carby stuff for very long after I went low-carb… but her Christmas dinner isn’t good and almost always the same. I would rather eat boiled eggs and that’s not my favorite, just convenient. I actually bring my own food now).
And I’ve read about the fuss over holidays, it wasn’t only my Mom, others did it even way worse I suppose. It was so super odd to me.
Making cookies peacefully as a kid, I loved those times together with my Mom. I tried to resurrect them but my SO isn’t suited to that and possible me either. We both can cook and bake a lot of things and sometimes we help each other but there is always one cook and the other has a very limited role least they would interfere… Oh well. It’s not like cookies are a part of my life now. I made some decorated ones in the last decade, as gifts… But even that will stop I think.
I actually don’t like to eat a special dish for a holiday. I want to eat it when I actually desire it. It’s very likely I don’t fancy a cake on my birthday (I got bored on cakes on keto so I never really want any…). Why to make it then? But making a cake on a simple Thursday if I feel like it, why not?
It’s the same with all dishes except those are even way easier. I don’t make anything too complicated, they can’t beat a pork roast, after all… I think I am an “easy to please with food” person. Though I have my moments when I want crunchy biscuits. I never figured out how to make those. It’s one of my antitalents. But I won’t give up.
Oh you meant that… Well, I never ever ate ice cream often. It was always somewhat special to me. It still is. Especially that I never want it nowadays so it’s super rare I make any. Store-bought ice cream is awful to me.
But still. You simply can’t buy a lot of nice treats in shops. Maybe a very good cake shop offers more or some village festival (almost all the women here cakes super good! I went low-carb and keto and I still had my 20+ slices of cake days a few times a year due to that. thankfully it’s over now) but I would think old family treasure recipes still have value. I still fondly remember some items my Grandma made and I never ever ate anything like that since…
And if one changes as it happened to me in the last decade, buying a specific treat is even harder and in my case, usually plain impossible. It’s very special if I decide it will worth it to make something complicated. If it’s too complicated, it never happens because it isn’t worth my time and effort. And I got quite lazy on carnivore I just don’t bother when I can make my fav foods with almost no work.
Nostalgy isn’t that nice to me anymore. Or if it is, it’s the memory. Not actually eating the dish.
My SO eats breakfast while working in dirty work gloves (well he is forced… he needs his breakfast earlier than the break but can’t do it at home). He likes to read or watch videos while eating. He only sit down properly when we sit together at the kitchen table (as I don’t always eat then)… It seems to be fine for him… But I am very much not like that. I must ENJOY food, focus it. I annoy him sometimes when I say it’s highly important to focus on the most rare and precious bites. Don’t talk then, let’s enjoy it fully! It stressed him, he likes the freedom to NOT focus on the food, no matter how special, once per year it is…
Each to their own, I guess.
It even bothers me that I tend to drink my coffee or tea while doing something else… But I don’t do that with food. It’s like throwing out perfectly fine food. Inexcusable in my own case.
Coffee… Maybe I will have thoughts about that later. Of course I will. But I don’t want to think about it now. The only kind of addiction my carnivore-ish couldn’t affect. But I still makes some tiny progress here and there… I want to stop drinking it or rather to make it very rare. Why I drink coffee? It makes no sense to me…
To me, it doesn’t matter if the coffee is decaf or not. I behave exactly to same with both.
Tea is better because… IDK. I don’t feel a compulsion to drink it all the time (it’s clearly something mental… it’s one of my top procrastination methods too. I can drink coffees in the morning for so long… I am NO morning person) and first of all, I drink it plain. I prefer my coffee with cream or something (but if cream isn’t involved, it will be inferior). And that’s not fasting and extra fat I can’t afford (okay, today it’s 10ml cream in my countless coffees, I can afford that much I came a long way! first it was 30-50ml per day and that’s a lot! yeah I know others could use up 10 times as much, it doesn’t matter to me. those people probably don’t eat too much on keto all the time like I tend to).
Okay so I had some thoughts but I probably could write about coffee for hours and I am not even a gourmet at all, I mean, I am the opposite, drinking some cheap and not very bitter (and extremely weak, it helps with the not-bitterness but both are important) instant coffee
I am way choosier with my tea. That’s why I drink it plain. Tea should be drank like that.
In my n=1 efforts, “mindful eating” makes a significant difference in both the experience and near term after-effects (digestion and related sensations of fullness). Unfortunately, setting aside time and focus for mindfulness while eating takes a lot of energy (calories?!?)
Indeed. The remarkable number and range of studies on the effects of coffee on virtually every aspect of human biology and behavior somehow manage to prove just about anything and everything. Which suggests this popular beverage has attracted a great deal of bogus science.
Coffee is our friend. Well, my friend, anyway (and I certainly understand that other people may have decidedly different experiences). When outright fasting (nothing but water and black coffee) or when eating zero carb, I’ve never noticed any meaningful difference, for better or worse. I cannot believe it is hampering ketosis.
Mindful eating - aren’t we supposed to eat in front of the television, or computer screen?
This feels true and natural to mine. My husband is a cable news junky and he even eats while watching. I find that counterproductive to feeding my body. Actually, I find it counterproductive to a peaceful mind/body in general. But I really pay attention when I eat. I love the Buddhist idea… when you eat the orange, eat the orange. (Period) I think we eat our feelings if we aren’t in control of our thoughts while eating. So I try to concentrate on what’s in front of me. All the time, but especially at the table. If there is a stressful situation going on, I treat my body like a patient. Broth and lots of water and TLC.
I’ve had basically the same amount of coffee/tea for years, and during that time, my ketones have been all over the place. Now, I have not ever not had coffee/tea during this time, so maybe there could be a difference? I likely will never know…
I don’t know but I hated coffee from my first cup mega years ago and I despise tea from the tannins that close up my throat and give me dry mouth and weirdo issues…dumped it all and I wonder truly about all you coffee drinkers who thrive or have to dump it for improvement!
Caffeine is sugar in a ‘smaller less invasive disquise’ maybe factor for inflammation and toxin to the body?? yet some are ok and others are nailed?? Very personal call on it physically to each of us?
I tried going two weeks without any coffee, reg. or decaf. because of the post on Dave’s website about the effect on triglycerides some people were reporting. It did not effect my triglycerides, which are low, so I continue to drink it.
One or two cups of coffee a day bets my older habit of drinking soda, both full sugar and 0 carb versions all the freakin’ day long. giving that up and upping my fats and ditching grains are the smartest life style changes I have ever done.
I am determined to try harder to stop drinking coffee now. I probably never even did keto without my zillion coffees let alone carnivore! It doesn’t sound that hard to stop, it gives me about nothing!
We will see.
I had days without coffee when I run out, maybe even a week once (nothing happened, of course, my body is quite stubborn and dislike changes, apparently) but that’s not a long time, I think. And I didn’t do carnivore then I am curious now.
Coffee complicates my life and it seems pointless to me now… Hopefully the time is ripe and it will be easy to stop.
Caffeine increases cortisol secretion in people at rest or undergoing mental stress
If you are under mental stress, coffee through caffeine may induce cortisol (stress hormone release) But there is more.
Like Paul points out, coffee is a lot more complex than caffeine. There may be more stuff in coffee that is biochemically active that works to negate some of the cortisol releasing effects of caffeine. But that logic won’t hold me back from making some bold and not fully substantiated statements (to follow).
Let’s ride the logic downstream. Cortisol then causes higher blood glucose. If that blood glucose is not directly metabolised in a fight or taking flight, insulin is secreted to help transport the circulating energy into fat storage, as well as inhibiting ketogenesis, and if severe or prolonged enough, stopping ketogenesis. That’s coffee through cortisol and insulin to it’s effect on ketogenesis in a stressed person.
Recipe is 1) stress ~> 2) drink coffee ~>3) store fat.
So the stress part relates to the topic about seeking to be in a relaxed parasympathetic state for eating, and it seems coffee drinking as well.
But there is more. Regular, adapted, coffee drinkers saw no rise in cortisol stress hormone when having a morning cup of coffee. So, adaptation can add some nuance to a not generally applicable physiological cascade. But drinking coffee in the afternoon or evening will create a rise in stress hormone and it’s consequences.
Cortisol responses to caffeine are reduced, but not eliminated, in healthy young men and women who consume caffeine on a daily basis.
Take away: Maybe don’t drink coffee if stressed, don’t drink coffee in the afternoon, or at night if you’re stressed or not.