Our bodies were not meant to zero carb

(Erin Macfarland ) #42

I was curious @richard though about those on ZC eating 4 or 5 pounds of meat per day, usually things like rib eye. How is it possible for them to do this and not hit that saturation point?

(Tim W) #43

This is a bit weak coming in after Richard’s reply BUT, I’ll simply add that while listening to those doctor’s may not be a bad idea, I’m hesitant to listen to any doctor without applying some critical thinking skills to what they are advocating.

Tim Noakes changed his mind about diet (and other things) and other doctors have changed their views on diet/nutrition/exercise as well. Following any doctor without question, isn’t that what got us heading down this path towards the coming diabetes train wreck?

You mention listening to your body, I suggest we’d all be better off if we

  1. Listened to the advice of doctors (like those you mention) and apply some critical thinking to it

then:

  1. Do a self experiment and see how we feel, and that’s what the OP is doing, and seeking some input on how to improve her current condition as she conducts the experiment.

Any of us who would simply parrot the “common knowledge about XXX or YYY” (much of it wrong) are not likely adding much to the discussion, and don’t get me wrong, this is not to say your POV isn’t valid or that you shouldn’t offer it, just remember it’s a discussion, not a parroting of dogma without question.

(Erin Macfarland ) #44

I agree @infromsea none of us should appeal to authority blindly, but unfortunately the majority of the population is completely out of touch with their intuition and what their bodies need. I of course always thought vegetables made me healthier but after removing them I saw that they had been causing me some discomfort. There is something to be said for trying out different protocols and seeing what works. You can use these “expert” doctors as a starting point like many of us here have done and then tailoring your approach to fit your particular needs and situation situation. For instance when I was suffering with anorexia I would listen to Dr Fung and he was so persuasive about the benefits of fasting that I believed I needed to fast even though I was underweight. He of course works with a population that is metabolically damaged so you don’t find him going out of his way to mention that you shouldn’t fast if you’re underweight . I couldn’t understand at the time why it was hard for me to fast longer than 24 hours (of course i was suffering from an eating disorder which I wasn’t aware of) but then I figured out with the help of people on this forum, including @richard that the body can only use a certain amount of energy from stored body fat per day. And I had so little body fat that my body couldn’t sustain the fasting. My point is, it can be harmful to just blindly follow the advice of “experts”,even when they are highly respected and experienced. We aren’t encouraged enough to learn how to listen to our own particular bodies’ needs , and if something works for someone they need to do what’s best for them. Many people find that eliminating vegetables improves their health. And there is scientific literature to back this up. But for other people eating veggies might benefit them, whether physically or psychologically. So trying out different protocols is important for sustaining this way of eating.

(Richard Morris) #45

They don’t do it every day, most likely.

(Adam Kirby) #46

Sorry but that’s just an appeal to authority fallacy. Also, you don’t have to dig deep to find significant disagreements among the low carb elite (Fung vs. Phinney on fasting, for instance). +the Ted Naimans vs the Rosedales and Fungs when it comes to protein intake.

(Michele) #47

I’ve chosen to be keto. I have also chosen to consume some carbs by eating vegetables. I like veges - salads with vinaigrette - yum. These are like heaven when combined with a delicious blue cheese or chicken or steak or
 what is important is that they give me pleasure without wrecking my keto WOE. My psychological experience is as important as my physiological experience long term as long as its not driven by addiction.
On another note I am curious about the crossover between what we eat ketowise and our blood type (blood type diet - Peter D’Adamo). So the question I’m holding is does my blood type influence my experience and success with the type of food I choose ketowise. So how much protein I can eat and how many carbs for instance.

(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #48

Just want to add one point to the discussion of the Masai. The one genetic difference between them and the rest of humanity is a mutation that allows them to metabolize lactose in adulthood (which is what allows them to make milk such a large part of their diet). This is, I understand, a separate mutation from the one that allows Northern Europeans to do so as well.

(Tim W) #49

Same here. I enjoy sauteed veggies or a nice big salad, I don’t eat the high carb veggies so I’m going to keep consuming them along with lots of meat, bacon, fats. I expect to the phytonutrients in the veggies to assist with a long, healthy life. If someone clearly shows that isn’t the case, I might keep eating to them for enjoyment.

(Dawn) #50

I love salads sooo much. I will never stop eating them. I especially love drawing them in some cheese, olive oil and apple cider vinegar and bacon
don’t forget the bacon.

(Sondra Rose) #51

Here’s one article with references for you:

(Chris) #52

To add to this, don’t phytotoxins actually block the absorption of calcium or compete for uptake with it (much like carbs and vitamin C)?

(Richard Morris) #53

And other nutrients too. There are phytotoxins called α-amylase inhibitors designed by plants as a defense against insect parasites that prevents them digesting glucose from starches. In insects it’s a pesticide - it kills them. In humans it slightly blunts our glycemic response. Guess what 
 pharma companies are now trying to turn it into a drug to take with your breakfast wheaties. :man_facepalming:

(Tim W) #54

I read that article with interest last week when it was posted.

In my opinion, the article’s focus was on debunking the “drink this or eat this anti-oxidant filled thing and it will make you healthy” craze.

The article mentions that reducing simple/refined carbs will reduce oxidation, which means you don’t have to stress eating/consuming things that are high in anti-oxidants if you are eating “whole foods” (click on the list of foods to see what’s listed as refined carbs/don’t eat, and whole foods, that we should eat, vegetables are listed along with other foods that those of us on keto don’t eat).

It also discusses the idea that consuming anti-oxidants does not have a health benefit, it does NOT say that consuming vegetables (the point I think we are discussing at this time) is negative for your health.

Quote from the article:
“Get smart about your health. You don’t need an impostor of a wizard to sell you what you’ve had inside of you all along. Trust in the capacity of your own internal antioxidants. Give them a fighting chance by feeding them the foods they were designed to handle. Eat real whole foods, and avoid refined carbohydrates like sugar, flour, fruit juice and processed cereals as much as you possibly can.”

This quote is followed by the link I mention above, a list of whole foods that we should be consuming to attempt to maintain optimum health, vegetables are listed.

Summary:

  • This article is advising that we ignore the marketing BS being sold by those peddeling “anti-oxidant miracle crap”. It advises us to pass up the pom juice and eat whole foods, cut out sugar/simple carbs and you’ll reduce the need for anti-oxidants and get all you need from whole foods (including vegetables).
  • The article says to stop eating certain things simply because of their anti-oxidant compounds since the amount you’d have to eat would is probably extremely high/beyond reason.
  • At no point, by my reading, does the article state that eating vegetables (the only point of contention I care about here since I don’t eat fruit) is harmful and that you should stop doing so, I don’t see any evidence that removing them from your diet is necessary for good health.

I am not arguing that you MUST eat vegetables for good health. I would agree that removing sugar/simple carbs is FAR more effective than eating MORE of the “good things” that will supposedly undo the effects of the “bad things” (eat more veggies and it will make up for the damage caused by sugar/smoking/alcohol).

I have read other articles/things, that lead me to believe that eating vegetables may still have a positive impact on health, Rhonda Patrick has done a lot of work in this area.

Bottom line, I enjoy veggies, I don’t eat them JUST for health, I eat them because I like the flavor/texture/calorie density. I don’t see any evidence at this time that leads me to believe that I need to remove them from my diet whole cloth.

On another note, let’s list ALL of the foods that you can eat that we KNOW have zero negative impact on the body: (having done several long fasts I believe that the metabolic cost of eating is high and may always damage our body in some regard, that damage has to then be repaired by the body, and that we underestimate that metabolic cost of consuming/burning/processing foods)

Foods that we’ve proven to have ZERO negative impact on the body:
???
???
???
Water (maybe?)

I apologize if this sidetracked the original post/discussion, I do love this community and how deep we are going down this hole. If, in the future, the evidence shows that vegetables do the same thing to our body/or worse, than carbs/sugar, maybe I’ll cut em, until then, I hear a salad a coming, it’s coming round the bend, and I ain’t seen the ranch dressing since ah, I don’t know when


(Chris) #56

There just isn’t any proof that veggies are, in fact good for us. Here’s another one written by the same doctor, here. Also goes over the bioavailabiility of micronutrients in plant foods.

(Sondra Rose) #57

Honestly, I’m not interested in debating the need for plant foods in the CARNIVORE forum. Apologies to the OP for participating in derailing her thread, however interesting the discussion may be.

This category is supposed to be a place of support for those of us who eat animal based foods by choice.

Engaging in this discussion is fine, but I don’t think it belongs here. Not only is it distracting from the OPs issues, it really belongs in the general Keto category, IMO.

(Chris) #58

Apologies also because this is off topic in the same vein. When viewing on desktop, when you look at the new threads on the right there’s no indication of subforum.

I think that’s a large part of why folks come in and make these comments that compel us to come correct them. I don’t have a solution for that. I thought of suggesting the Zero Carb forum be moved out of the Food area, but that would not alleviate what I just mentioned in the least. This is hard to police without being a big ole meany (at least for me, I’m trying though haha).

edit: Just looked again, I must have been on meth yesterday. You can plainly see what subforum it’s listed under on desktop so there’s no excuse for the vets!

(Richard Morris) #59

I moved this thread because it was not helping the OP in the thread it was in. But it’s an interesting thread worth prosecuting.

(Chris) #60

Thanks @Richard I think you made the right decision.

(Doug) #61

I think it depends on how we view that. Is it that zero carb will kill us, or is it that there’s usually nothing wrong with eating some carbs?

For sure - our bodies were not meant to eat the quantity of carbohydrates that some of us formerly did, nor with such frequency, and that has put us in a bad place, metabolically. Even if we weren’t really “made to eat no carbohydrates,” fixing that ‘bad place’ often involves zero carbs or close to it.

(TJ Borden) #62

Broccoli probably isn’t the best example. Its actually a genetically engineered veggie. Definitely not something our ancestors would have stumbled upon while for foraging for food, dodging :t_rex:

I understand the resistance, in the same way it was a mental hurdle to embrace fat, but since I’m not a super sciencey guy I just listen to the arguments, and knowing there were multiple societies that seem to have survived just fine with little to no carbohydrates prior to being introduced to our current industrialized diet, I find it difficult to believe humans actually NEED carbs.