Our bodies were not meant to zero carb

(Erin Macfarland ) #26

I do eat liver regularly.

(Jason Fletcher) #27

Hereditary hemochromatosis could be a factor if it is iron over load. The genes run in my family but have yet to be a problem for me.

#28

I do not buy into the 100% plant based diet ideology. I’m not thinking that our body requires carbs. I’m thinking that there are nutrients and fiber (necessary for good gut health) that vegetables are good at supplying. More importantly, I’m convinced by LC diet health care practitioners (and there are many) that believe that too much protein isn’t ideal for maximizing health.

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #29

There are no nutrients the body requires that cannot be supplied in a zero-carb diet. The two most famous examples of this are the Masai and the Inuit, whose traditional diets included no plant-based foods whatsoever. The idea was further proved by the experiment in 1927 (I believe) on Stefansson and Andersen after they returned from living among the Inuit for several years. The nutritionists of the time couldn’t believe that they hadn’t caught scurvy, and locked them up in a ward at Bellevue Hospital in New York City for a year, on which they ate only meat (mostly organ meat) and animal fat under strict observation. The experiment was considered a failure, because the two men obstinately refused to develop scurvy or in fact any other nutritional disease. The only time the two men didn’t feel at peak form was an episode when they were persuaded to eat muscle meat only; they started feeling terrible, but a dish of organ meat put them right as rain again. The Inuit themselves, in fact, ate mostly the fatty organ meats and gave the lean muscle meat to their dogs.

I don’t know what happened to Andersen, but Stefansson and his wife eventually retired to a quiet New England village. He continued his moderate-protein and high-fat diet with great success, and was once heard to remark that it was lucky for him that his neighbors in the village were afraid of fat, so that he got his pretty much for free from the local butcher.

(Sondra Rose) #30

Fiber is NOT necessary for good gut health. Another fallacy.

Read The Fiber Menace or check out some of the links on the website I already mentioned.

(Richard Morris) #31

Our bodies are adaptable. A zero carb diet can encompass all known essential nutrients so it is within the range of intakes that many humans can thrive on - unlike a vegan diet for example.

You don’t HAVE to go the full carnivore yourself. but unless you have evidence to show that a zero carb diet is deficient you can’t tell anyone that they CAN’T.

As for protein levels, there is no relationship between zero carb and protein level. There are zero carb low protein formulations and zero carb high protein formulations. A good Aussie wagyu steak is 96% (by calorie) fat and 4% protein by calorie, a lean sirloin 58% (by calorie) fat, 42% protein.

I personally don’t need to eat a lot of protein to stay in nitrogen balance, but the range of human variability is dramatic. And while too much protein will certainly kill you, you would have to eat over 1.5 kgs of those lean sirloins every day for several weeks before the effects of ammonia intoxication started to show. And I’m not sure you could even give yourself a paper cut with the wagyu.

(Erin Macfarland ) #32

Thank you @richard. I don’t like the idea that I’d be harming myself by eating “too much” protein certainly. But it seems like one self regulates this fairly well on ZC especially when eating fatty meat. Eating this way is much more challenging than eating keto as you’re confronting the limits of what you can tolerate and why you want to eliminate the things on keto that increase its appeal, like variety, sweet tastes and easier social engagement. ZC is difficult in these senses, but it does force you to see the things that maybe haven’t been contributing to success. I for one have a sweet tooth and also, enjoy variety that comes from eating vegetables. But including these in my regular keto eating style would lead to uncontrollable cravings for more and more keto treats and digestive discomfort from all the vegetables. So for me it’s worth seeing if I can mitigate these and simplify things while addressing some long standing dysfunctional behaviors around food.

(Richard Morris) #33

I plan to attempt both a month of carnivory and vegetarianism some time this year just not at breck, or ketofest.

(Dawn) #34

Hi Guys

Question. If you are ZC or carnivore, does that mean that all you eat is meat? I thought that eating too much protein was a very bad thing. But if you don’t eat protein on ZC, what do you eat? I am confused about this and would like to learn more about what everyone does.

(Erin Macfarland ) #35

@richard I will see you at Breck!

(Erin Macfarland ) #36

@Goal179 ZC is eating only animal foods with a base of meat.

(Chris) #37

Hey there, as @richard stated above, decent steaks like a lean sirloin are 60% fat by calorie and 40% protein. Meat does not mean just protein. There’s a lot of fat and also a wide range of micronutrients in addition.

For me I’ll eat 4lbs of sirloin or top round easy, maybe add some fat afterward if still hungry for it. The body tends to signal what it wants on this way of eating, it’s just a matter of finding out what that is. :slight_smile:

#38

I’m not telling anybody what to do with their body.

There are no scientific studies on the long term effects of a ZC diet (and probably never will be). There are studies on the effects of excess protein. That’s not my opinion, that’s a fact. You can choose to ignore them if you want.

Whether the subject is finance, fitness, or food, I don’t want to be a guinea pig. I’m not going to reinvent the wheel. I look for guidance from experts who know a lot more and are a lot smarter than me. When folks like Dr. Fung, Dr. Perlmutter, Dr. Westman, Dr. Lustig, Dr. Wahls say eating vegetables is vital to good health, I listen. You can choose not to. Its your body, your choice.

(Chris) #39

What you’re defining as excess protein is just meat. It’s more than just one macronutrient. You mentioned studies, would you link them so we can read for ourselves?

(Richard Morris) #40

Sure there are; This study in Tanzania …

… comparing the Masai (LCHF) with Bantu (LFHC) populations found that the Masai where 82% of subjects reported a high fat/low carbohydrate intake (Milk, Blood, and Beef primarily) had higher energy, lower BMI, lower systolic, and more favorable lipid profile.

Not to mention the studies by George Mann in the 1960s who studied 400 men and found none with detectable signs of heart disease - which is unheard of in modern human populations.

Yup I may be aware of some of those :slight_smile:

For example this study increased protein intake until urine urea production saturated and found that around 3.3g/kg LBM the human ability to dispose of the waste products of metabolizing protein for energy is constrained.

That is 4x the amount of protein that most people eat. Let’s do the math of how much of that lean sirloin or a fatty wagyu you would have to eat consistently for at least 2 weeks to saturate your nitrogen disposal.

Lean Sirloin
https://ndb.nal.usda.gov/ndb/foods/show/4081
Water: 66.09%
Protein: 20.30%
Fat: 12.71%

Fatty Wagyu
https://ndb.nal.usda.gov/ndb/foods/show/7379
Water: 30.25%
Protein: 6.54%
Fat: 63.27%

For a man with 80kgs LBM (ie: me) the saturation point is roughly 264g of protein a day.

A lean sirloin is 20.30% protein so to get 264g of protein you would have to consume 1300.49g which would be 2543.63 kCal/day.

A fatty wagyu is 6.54% protein so to get 264g of protein you would have to consume 4036.7g which would be a massive 24042.2 kCal/day.

So as you can see it all depends on the kind of meat you are eating, you might be able to just saturate urea disposal if you are eating 1.3 kgs of sirloin a day, and the energy consumed of 2500ish kCal is about right for a days energy so that could be all you eat. To saturate protein intake pretty much requires you to pound whey protein isolate … which has been done by people on protein sparing modified fasts … and has killed people. But you’d really have to over consume calories to do it with that sirloin.

I’m pretty sure you are not likely to be able to eat 4 kgs of wagyu a day for 2 weeks, a massive 24,000 kCal/day.

None of them say that vegetables are essential to good health. The only people who make that case are people who have an ethical objection to meat, for whom eating vegetables is essential for ethical health - and they conflate good with ethical.

(Erin Macfarland ) #41

Thank you @richardamd @Dread1840 this is an awesome thread!

(Erin Macfarland ) #42

I was curious @richard though about those on ZC eating 4 or 5 pounds of meat per day, usually things like rib eye. How is it possible for them to do this and not hit that saturation point?

(Tim W) #43

This is a bit weak coming in after Richard’s reply BUT, I’ll simply add that while listening to those doctor’s may not be a bad idea, I’m hesitant to listen to any doctor without applying some critical thinking skills to what they are advocating.

Tim Noakes changed his mind about diet (and other things) and other doctors have changed their views on diet/nutrition/exercise as well. Following any doctor without question, isn’t that what got us heading down this path towards the coming diabetes train wreck?

You mention listening to your body, I suggest we’d all be better off if we

  1. Listened to the advice of doctors (like those you mention) and apply some critical thinking to it

then:

  1. Do a self experiment and see how we feel, and that’s what the OP is doing, and seeking some input on how to improve her current condition as she conducts the experiment.

Any of us who would simply parrot the “common knowledge about XXX or YYY” (much of it wrong) are not likely adding much to the discussion, and don’t get me wrong, this is not to say your POV isn’t valid or that you shouldn’t offer it, just remember it’s a discussion, not a parroting of dogma without question.

(Erin Macfarland ) #44

I agree @infromsea none of us should appeal to authority blindly, but unfortunately the majority of the population is completely out of touch with their intuition and what their bodies need. I of course always thought vegetables made me healthier but after removing them I saw that they had been causing me some discomfort. There is something to be said for trying out different protocols and seeing what works. You can use these “expert” doctors as a starting point like many of us here have done and then tailoring your approach to fit your particular needs and situation situation. For instance when I was suffering with anorexia I would listen to Dr Fung and he was so persuasive about the benefits of fasting that I believed I needed to fast even though I was underweight. He of course works with a population that is metabolically damaged so you don’t find him going out of his way to mention that you shouldn’t fast if you’re underweight . I couldn’t understand at the time why it was hard for me to fast longer than 24 hours (of course i was suffering from an eating disorder which I wasn’t aware of) but then I figured out with the help of people on this forum, including @richard that the body can only use a certain amount of energy from stored body fat per day. And I had so little body fat that my body couldn’t sustain the fasting. My point is, it can be harmful to just blindly follow the advice of “experts”,even when they are highly respected and experienced. We aren’t encouraged enough to learn how to listen to our own particular bodies’ needs , and if something works for someone they need to do what’s best for them. Many people find that eliminating vegetables improves their health. And there is scientific literature to back this up. But for other people eating veggies might benefit them, whether physically or psychologically. So trying out different protocols is important for sustaining this way of eating.

(Richard Morris) #45

They don’t do it every day, most likely.