Ketosis and Weight Loss

(Bob M) #2

Why do you think your glucose control is not improving?

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #3

Eat less carbs and more fat. Do not use % for fat and protein amounts - use grams. Fat provides the energy and protein provides the building materials. If you’re not trying to make more muscle, protein beyond the minimum to maintain health (about 1-1.5 gr per kg total body weight) is sufficient. Eat enough fat that you’re not hungry. Hungry an hour before a scheduled meal is OK, more than that or hungry all the time is not.

What is your total body weight? If you’re not doing this to lose excess fat but control glucose then carbs are more important than fat:protein ratio. Eat less carbs. The less the better. Eat enough fat and protein to maintain your total weight. This will end up as a ‘caloric window’, for example 1800-2200 cals per day. If you eat within that window you will maintain. If you eat below or above for a few days you will start to lose or gain.

Give yourself at least 3 months before evaluating your results. Your body and metabolism are making a huge change in energy management and you have to give it time.

(Gregory - You can teach an old dog new tricks.) #4

A month?

See what happens in a year…

(Joey) #5

@amwassil I appreciate you are offering an example, but it sounds just a bit like a Weight-Watcher CICO model. I wonder why 1800-2200 kcal is thought to yield weight maintenance? :thinking:

FWIW, I routinely ate somewhere between 1800-2200 kcal/daily for decades while eating “supposedly healthy” high carb/low fat (albeit 2MAD) and I kept getting plumper. Not obese, but from around 140lbs to 165lbs, all while being aerobically fit.

When I switched to low carb/high fat but essentially equal kcal/daily (roughly 2000 kcal - still 2MAD eating to satiety), I slowly lost 25 lbs and 4" at the waistline. It just melted away on its own with the same total caloric intake.

Makes me conclude that one’s body calibrates how calories are to be utilized (vs excreted) based on the mix of macro nutrient sources provided… total caloric count be damned.

Moreover, having continued eating roughly the same LCHF 2000 kcal/day (still 2MAD to satiety), my weight has been remarkably stable for about a year.

Same caloric input throughout, different macro mix, different outcomes. Some changes reflect change in fat vs carb (weight/girth reduction). Subsequent stability (keto with same caloric intake) apparently reflect my body’s excretion of unneeded caloric content.

Am certainly open to other explanations, since I don’t really have one :wink:

(Bob M) #6

They think there’s about a 400 calorie (or so - can’t remember the real number) benefit to low carb. Basically, calories you lose via breath, etc. 400 calories isn’t much, but perhaps enough to cause some weight loss.

Unlike Michael, I am not a CICOphant. In particular, unless you eat the same thing every day (which I do not), it’s nearly impossible to count calories with any accuracy.

Consider meat with fat or skin. Unless you separate the meat, fat and skin, you won’t get an accurate reading. If your wife makes dinner, how do you know what you’re getting? If you make a recipe that makes extra sauce that you toss, how many calories have you lost? If you drain your 80/20 ground beef, how many calories have you lost?

If I eat sous vided beef heart, but don’t separate the fat from the meat, how many calories am I getting? If you make duck and get tons of fat, how many calories are you getting in the duck?

Need I go on?

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #7

@SomeGuy and anyone else who cares.

Yes, I used 1800-2200 simply as an example. My own ‘caloric maintenance window’ is 2300-2700 calories. Yet, I’m a very lean 76 years old guy. I eat a fat:protein macro of 2:1 grams and 4.5:1 calories. That maxes out to 240 grams of fat and 120 grams of protein daily. Most importantly, I think, is I eat sub-15 grams of carbs, frequently sub-10 and occasionally sub-5. I measure and use a spreadsheet to track my eating because I do not have reliable hunger and satiety signals. I did while eating SAD all my life before keto. But since starting keto, not so much.

Also importantly, I did not just arbitrarily pick these numbers out of a hat. They are based on trial and error over the course of about a year and a half eating keto. These specific numbers enable me maintain my weight and body comp and provide sufficient energy to live a fairly active lifestyle for someone my age. For example, I work a full-time, physically active job at Walmart. I remain active both walking and cycling.

So I agree, the most important thing is cut the carbs - eliminate if you can. If you have reliable hunger and satiety signals, use them to determine how much to eat. But if you don’t, like me, then you gotta keep track of stuff in a more regimented manner.

Also, as pointed out by @ctviggen and supported by Bikman, just maintaining ketosis gives you a ‘metabolic advantage’ of energy expendature otherwise not there.

PS: I also agree that counting calories is problematic. To wit: the caloric numbers posted for ref everywhere from the USDA on down are averages at best; the energy contained in a specific piece of meat, for example, that you happened to select off the grocery shelf could vary by what? 10-20% from the ave ref number; your metabolism is not 100% efficient, of whatever the energy contained in that specific piece of meat on your plate, your metabolism is only going to extract 75-90% maybe.

That’s why you have to use trial and error to determine what and how much to eat. In my book that’s not CICO. That’s realistic - also more work, but it’s my life I’m working on.

#8

Sorry to jump into someone else’s thread, but I couldn’t let this one go by without a question (and forgive me; I know I should use the search function, but while you’re here……).
For protein requirements is it a) 1g per lb lean body mass (I’m sure I’ve heard this on Keto podcasts and which for me would be 112g) b) the dudes’ prescription of 1-1.5g per kg lean body mass (51-76g) or c) what you’ve said above (88g-132g). I lift so I’d be tempted to go nearer to the higher of each number, but there’s quite a difference and I am extremely confused….

(Joey) #9

Definitely agree.

Attempting weight loss via calorie counting is fraught with chances to miss the real issues underlying weight struggles from the outset.

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #10

The ‘correct’ numbers are grams per kilogram. Science uses the metric number system, not the US number system. That said, some advocate using ‘lean’ mass rather than ‘whole body’ mass. But lean mass is rather difficult to determine, whereas total body mass can be read off any bathroom scale.

(Bob M) #11

Beef heart:

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You eat this when the farm has it. You do not cut the fat off and sous vide the heart, so that you can eat the fat (hard, but tastes like beef suet). On the first day, you also drink the juices. How many calories did you just get? Given that only part of the heart has fat, and that fat varies wildly by location, how many calories are you getting?

How does trial and error have any effect on this? You don’t eat it enough to have an “error”.

Edit: The ONLY way trial and error works if you eat the same thing every day. Which I don’t. You can’t figure out an error if you don’t eat something long enough to be a “trial”.

#12

Ta. Pretty sure the dudes say lean body mass at the start of the earlier podcasts and any extra will be converted to glucose. I guess I’ll just do a n=1 and see how I go.

Brits use stones and pounds for body weight, grams and kilograms for food weights (although I remember the furore when that changed), feet and inches for height, miles for distance and speed and litres (not fluid ounces) for volume except for beer and milk which is measured in pints.

And now we’ve Brexited I wouldn’t be surprised if some of that changes again :roll_eyes:

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #13

Hey, Bob, the results of the pudding are in the eating. How are you doing with whatever your long term goals are? I’m doing really well with mine. Plus, you’re flogging the wrong horse. I am the last person on this forum to claim counting calories is the simple road to success. I do advocate learning from experience! If you don’t learn from your own trial and error then you’re just condemning yourself to making the same mistakes again and again.

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #14

This is not correct and I doubt seriously that our 2 Keto Dudes made this claim.

#15

This was a massive mantra in keto circles about 7-10 years ago, but it’s been pretty debunked now.

Diabetics may have more reason to be concerned about excess protein; I’m not diabetic, so can’t comment on that - but I regularly eat 200-250g of protein a day. Don’t worry about it.

This is an interesting study where the intake was in the 4.4g/kg/d range for people lifting weights: https://jissn.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1550-2783-11-19

#16

Richard seriously did in episode 6:

“When you eat more protein than you need to build up your muscles and to maintain your body, all of the excess gets converted into glucose, basically converted into energy and most of that gets converted into glucose and that then causes insulin to rise, which causes you to put on more weight” It’s about 23 minutes in.

In fairness it was nearly 6 years ago and I’ve been working my way through episodes from the start, so I’ll be interested to see what else is said. But for now that’s been at the forefront of my mind regarding what daily protein grams to pitch for.

#17

Thanks, cross posted with you.

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #18

@richard Still think so?

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #19

@Circe Hit the link to Tuit Nutrition I provided above.

#20

No worries - I listened to those episodes in late 2020, and I had a vague memory of what you were saying!

I know there’s also a discussion about eating less fat so your body metabolises the fat on your body instead, but I’ve read a lot of conflicting advice in that area since.

I had a friend who briefly dipped into keto and trying to restrict carbs and fearing fat (after hearing that podcast) meant that it ended badly for her - so the podcasts are informative and useful, but if you’re thinking of making a big change, have an ask here, because there’s often some updated thoughts floating around.

I also think that the journey the dudes both went on is amazing and so interesting, and I am extremely grateful that they went to such lengths to document it and talk through the science as well - but I am always mindful that I am a 30something female who isn’t diabetic, so my pathway might differ from theirs.

#21

The podcasts are also funny as :smiley::+1:t2: