Well pre keto was a disaster for me. I was a preferential carb eater, I’d say protein was a condiment. Lol. Then I switched over and now tend to eat more protein. But I’m a small person, 5’5. So just wanted to make sure I wasn’t actually working against myself. I like keto for all the benefits and want to maintain ketosis otherwise I could in theory eat a little more vegetables. I never want to go back to anything else.
Ketones when new vs fat adapted
Fangs
#23
yea it is real but it won’t be applying ever mostly to just people doing Keto Plan or ‘heck us carnivores’ cause that is ALL we do eat LOL
from the net: Protein toxicity is the buildup of protein metabolic wastes due to under-functioning kidneys . Protein toxicity is common in people with kidney disease who consume more protein than their body can handle. Overall, protein poisoning is rare.
we don’t want too much misinformation running rampant about ‘meat proteins’ out there that just scare others into doing the wrong thing.
Fangs
#24
from the net: Do ketone levels matter? Ketone levels can fluctuate based on many things including fasting, exercise, sleep pattern, stress level, and more. That can make it hard to predict what your ketone levels will be from day to day.
----from me: remember ketones, there are only 3 that the body produes. So ‘new plan people’ will burn their ketones way different as their bodies detox off carbs/heal/repair/hormones change and they get less inflammation and more of that good health changes…they will burn higher and will show thru urine and thru breath.
Longer on plan your ketones become an actual useful functioning of your entire body as the main fuel burn so one will not be dumping ‘tons of ketones’ in a pee strip or a breath analyzer.
Now, one can put themselves into ‘active ketosis’ literally by their meal plan and like many mentioned above, that was for medical purposes like to combat epilepsy and other medical usses, but one must 'put themselves into ‘active ketosis’ to ‘see’ these numbers and then only truth thru that comes from a blood meter for measurements.
Keto Plan people might track more on ketones, but into zero carb/carnivore where most of us on this carnivore plan never track our ketones…it is more of a mute point. Our goals are common from these 2 plans. Carb control! Keto eaters allow some carbs which come from plant sources mainly, but carnivorese drop the plant matter so we go more ‘zero carb’ eating. Let the ketones do their own thing unless one has to then intervene and stay in ‘active ketosis’ thru their manipulation of eating for med reasons or their own personal goals.
also remember what ‘fat adapted’ really means: from the net: If you eat in a way that ensures a state of ketosis for an extended amount of time ̶ several weeks or more ̶ your body fully shifts to burning ketones for energy instead of glucose. When this happens, you’re fat adapted; so, fat adapted means your body has become used to regularly relying on blood ketones for fuel and no longer seeks carbs.
It does’t ‘truly mean anything’ against how the ketones will elevate, or changed, or how they burn for measurement and more in our bodies. Fat adapted simply means you are flipped from glucose burn to ketone burn. It means not much more than that kinda.
A ‘ketone burn fueled body’ does just that. It burns ketones for energy. It is simple…now key being if you ‘think it should do more for ya in some way’ extra to be measured ya know as in 'did I eat too much fat to not burn fat? did I eat some sneaky carbs to ‘take me out of ketone fuel burn and increase my glucose so much it burns first’ etc. doesn’t really matter in that your ketones and how they roll are on what goes down your gullet and how your carb intake is also effecting your ketones. Carb intake will work against your ketone intake at all times. More carbs, burn first, your ketones will adjust and change. So all about carb control.
first off ya cheat on carbs your body will burn the glucose first. easiest function for it to do…then if you overeat on fatty stuff it might easy then store that fat…we KNOW this as the SAD menu of life out there 
moral of the post…don’t worry on how your ketones burn. Key to it all like many have said…eat your plan, focus always on carb intake and the body ‘will truly do the rest’.
don’t also compare a 3 wk new person with a several years (and takes carb breaks) against each other…lol…that will only cause massive confusion that isn’t required on Keto
just chatting…
Naghite
(Michael)
#25
Me, easily. And everyone talking about protein not being a concern are actually incorrect. Yes, protein intake affects gluconeogenesis, but if you do not have IR, your A1C will not go up. If you do have IR, then it will slightly. Yes, you can eat too much protein (typically around 3.4 g/kg or more). This can affect testosterone production for example. Enough protein can reduce your ketones to zero in your blood (I have done it with 5g/kg bodyweight). Having said all this, for MOST people who only eat under 2.5 g/kg, protein is not a concern. But the science is not being well represented in this thread. The wole “gluconeogensis is demand driven” has never been true, but it has not stopped the majority in this thread and forum from ignoring the science https://www.mostly-fat.com/ketotic-blog/2013/01/protein-gluconeogenesis-and-blood-sugar/ . Who would want to go against their favorite dogmatic expressions?
Fangs
#26
absolutely do not agree on this statement.
NOW only saying this cause it has ‘a ton of functions and a ton of real cause effects and more’ when one is not ingesting ANY carbs to move against the GNG process etc.
glucose we know must be ‘made’ for some body functions that require absolute glucose to use…we know our bodies have this process as GNG. as in a few parts of our brain MUST use glucose, simple as that. Not a doubt from science but the body makes sure when one is ketogenic burn fuel only thru its own functions to ‘make’ ‘convert’ thru our body some glucose to make that function and we live. We survive and breath. Without the body and its supply driven glucose function the body could not survive ever on just protein as the body parts require.
Yes one can easily eat too much protein to 'effect testosterone levels, to effect ketone levels maybe on how they burn and more, but I also say that one has to put ‘real life human medical issues and who they are’ and ‘functions like testosterone that are not body killers’ against what demand driven GNG is all about.
2 issues.
will GNG happen for all. yes. simple your body must do these physical functions for survival. It is demand driven literally to keep one alive when no glucose is taken into the body. Simple truth on this one.
Now, can GNG effect other ‘non life threatening issues’ like testerone levels, like other ‘levels’ we humans track, IT SURE CAN and this is where we wanna ‘manipulate’ to fix non-life threatening changes one might require but it is not required ever by all. GNG is not the issue as it it being wrong or bad ever, it is who we are and what body issues one is combating against to then manipulate our food intake to work for us.
so there is real science on what GNG ‘does’ to save us…to function off all plant carb/higher sugars intake…then there is 'what GNG can do to ‘other physical issues one deals with in their own personal medical function’ and what they need to change for the better to suit their body.
GNG is demand driven off all sugar/carb intake. It is what the body does for survival polint blank to supply some glucose to what body parts IE the brain mostly for the little, like 3g carb glucose it requires for survival…but after that, OTHER functions one might have issues with doesn’t mean that demand driven isn’t the truth, it means a person needs more glucose for changes or more fat intake to effect changes in their personal bodies.
just sayin’ GNG is SO basic yet so misunderstood. On a rampant level truly out there in how low can ya go and into keto/zero carb land.
Just chatting it out and always learning more on it.
kib1
(KM)
#27
Lol. I like to think of new members as shy visitors in the back garden. Welcome them, be gentle and friendly and curious, reassuring. Don’t yell or wave your arms or attempt to ride them around the lawn! Hi Diana, rest assured, we’re glad you’re here. 
PaulL
(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?)
#28
Dr. Phinney emphasises that keto is a moderate-protein diet, but other experts push protein more. Prof. Bikman, for example, is concerned about protein lost in old age, as we lose our ability to assimilate amino acids, so he recommends a much higher protein intake, so that the body will still be able to use it later. And then there are people like Ted Naiman, who says that “too much protein isn’t even a thing.”
While this does suggest that there’s no need to worry overmuch about protein, except to be sure we get enough, there are limits. Dr. Phinney’s concern is that a high-protein intake interferes with ketosis. I mentioned Prof. Bikman’s. They’re giving the best advice they can, based on the best data they know of, but I suspect we don’t yet have the full story. (Ted Naiman is known for running well past the data, so I tend to disregard him.)
The upper limit on protein intake comes when the uric acid cycle is overloaded and ammonia toxicity becomes a problem. But it is very hard to eat that much protein in the form of real food, so I wouldn’t worry about it. Your body will tell you when you’ve had enough.
I should also add that Amber O’Hearn, a citizen scientist, believes that while it is not true that “excess protein turns to cake in our blood,” it is also not true that “gluconeogenesis is demand-driven.” She says that the truth is much more nuanced than either of those statements.
PaulL
(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?)
#29
Sorry for the correction, but fat-adaptation is a specific process of healing in the skeletal muscles, which eventually start refusing ketones as well as glucose, in favour of metabolising fatty acids. The ketones and glucose are thus spared for use by organs that need it, such as red blood corpuscle, which can’t metabolise fats or ketones, and the brain, which needs ketones because fats can’t get through the blood-brain barrier. Other organs have a choice. The heart muscle, for example, thrives on ketones, especially if there is arterial blockage (because ketones require less oxygen to metabolise).
The three ketone bodies also have potent epigenetic effects, so they are not just useful as fuel for the body.
OldDoug
(Doug)
#30
In the mix, absolutes and generalizations usually only go so far, and may well be incorrect. Agreed that “too much protein” is possible, but as a practical matter I’d say it is almost never a concern.
But does it affect it substantially, meaningfully? The article you linked to doesn’t make the case that it does. It shows a ketogenic diet and blood sugar going from an average of 78 to 90 after eating protein. To that I would say, “So what?” That’s not concerning. The article does note that the sample size was small and that more information would be gained by upping the quantity of protein consumed and plotting the blood sugar results - very reasonable there.
3.4 g/kg or more of protein being “too much” - makes sense to me. I would have said even a slightly lower amount could be a problem for some people on a chronic basis.
Good discussion, Michael, and that’s fascinating information there. And 
holy crow - as far as meat consumption that would be some serious cranking on it - like me eating 5+ lbs per day on average.
I’ve seen dogma being favored on this forum, too, even when including some outright falsehoods within it. Hey, we’re human… GNG being demand-driven… I’d say that’s more true than false.
Protein can be used to make glucose - it can have a glucostatic role when the body needs it to. But that’s going from a low level of blood sugar to a higher level; not the same thing as raising blood glucose, per se, and especially not to a meaningfully higher, demonstrably harmful level.
An average for the amount of glucose in one’s blood is ~5 grams. Going from 78 to 90 mg/dl blood sugar as in the article is thus going to be gaining less than one gram of glucose for most of us. Or, hypothetically, let’s say we eat a lot of protein and our glucose goes up by 30 points in response. That’s still only going to be around 2 grams of glucose gained.
Contrast that with demand-driven 80 to 200 grams(?) of glucose made by the body daily when eating zero carb, well fat-adapted and with most of the body running on ketones/fatty acids. It’s something like 25% of our cells still have to have glucose to operate with, and thus the body makes the 80-200g.
Or, in the case of extreme ultra-endurance athletes who very substantially deplete their glycogen stores. As the article you linked to said, “Ultimately, of course, the glycogen in keto dieters also comes from GNG that happened previously.” Even without consuming any carbohydrates at all, the body will replenish glycogen, hundreds and hundreds of grams, over time. This too is demand-driven, i.e. had the depletion not occurred, the GNG pursuant to making the glycogen would not have, either. I think it’s fair to say that GNG is not entirely demand-driven, but that by far, it mostly is.
PaulL
(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?)
#31
Another consideration to bear in mind is that there are other factors regulating serum glucose, in addition to glucagon and insulin. In mice, there is a strain bred to lack the ability to produce insulin. If they can still produce glucagon, their blood sugar gets out of control and they become Type I diabetics. However, if their ability to produce glucagon is also destroyed, their blood sugar remains normal and they do not become diabetic. So there is obviously more going on with glucose regulation than meets the eye.
While it is risky to generalise from animal models to human beings, it is strongly likely that human beings have similar regulatory mechanisms. What that tells us about the current discussion, I’m not sure, but it would certainly be nice to know what, if any, mechanisms the human body uses to regulate glucose when both glucagon and insulin are out of the picture.
Shinita
#32
2-3g/kg for LBM (my lots of fat definitely don’t need that protein…) is where I normally eat. I go higher regularly but as I really try to minimize my protein, it doesn’t happen often. This level is still fine for me as my average is still not too high but I probably shouldn’t go higher. And some people easily do that and face problem. Some face problems way lower and some are fine with surprisingly much but there is a limit for everyone.
I often have 130-170g protein meals, that’s nice, I like those. And I DO try to minimalize my protein intake. Maybe not super hard all the time (that needs focus) but it’s my mission now. But it’s so hard, protein piles up like crazy as I am hungry and what else would I eat than some protein source? 
Even fatty protein sources can’t help, I love them too much…
It would be no problem if I just could do OMAD almost all the time, I am working on it but somehow that is hard.
Shinita
#33
Nope, it can be lower if that suits you. My aim is to keep my fat percentage “low” while not overeating protein like crazy 
As only that gives me proper macros. In grams, I don’t care about percentages, they fall wherever they fall as long as my grams are fine for me.
Percentages are very individual. 65% fat is a bit high in my case for my current goals though it depends. Mostly on my energy need.
I don’t see the logic in it. My carbs percentages never were nearly that high (more like 30% but I don’t know) but even for someone on HCLF, they had some fat to begin with. And they keep some carbs too. Even if they want to keep their energy intake, almost all of the carb percentages add to the existing fat percentages. Of course, for a total fat-phobic, your numbers sounds about right. It’s scary to think such people actually exist… I don’t want to think it’s so very common though. (Even the news that I actually heard from you that some countries do low-fat as general was shocking to me, don’t people like to eat tasty, unhealthy stuff? Some changes I understand and I even saw in my own country but that much? Strange.)
@Fangs. Oh. So it’s called something else? Sorry. What is then when we are originally fine but overeat protein to the point where we feel bad (and surely start to get damaged) due to it? There is an unhealthy level of protein intake for everyone, that was my point. Most of us simply can’t do that (without force). Some people can.
OldDoug
(Doug)
#34
170g…If it’s one piece of meat then that’s fairly big, like 0.7 kg or 1.5 lbs.
So many days I’ll have 4 eggs around mid-day, but that’s only like 25 grams of protein. 
I just looked it up. Then one more bigger meal, usually including pork, chicken or beef - most often beef, and about 450 - 600 grams, so at most about 150 g protein there. That’s the way it comes packaged for me, most of the time.
Tomorrow is Easter and we’re going to my brother-in-law’s house. Should be a lot of beef and ham. So easy to eat 1 kg… But day after day, I guess I don’t really eat a huge amount of protein.
We can talk about our own experiences and what we do. Or all people in the world, or some people with specific conditions and practices. In the end I usually end up looking in the mirror and saying, “Just keep it low-carb, Doug.”
Shinita
#35
I easily ate 2.5g/kg on vegetarian keto too… Meat isn’t the only protein source, after all… Far from it. And I almost never could get satiated without my high protein. So I ate it, whatever my woe was. Of course it’s easier to get high with multiple meals but my first tend to be substantial. (100+ g protein and fat sounds right. But for OMAD, I need significantly more.)
My database said 170g protein is more like 800-1000 g meat… I can’t go near that in one sitting (at least I never did), of course I can do it with multiple meals, not every day though (I possibly could get used to it but I have reasons not to try). But I have my eggs and some dairy. It adds up. Especially the eggs.
Naghite
(Michael)
#36
Yes, it meaningfully affects gluconeogenesis which does NOT mean it affects blood glucose. GNG is a part of blood glucose, along with glycogen and current needs. You can increase GNG while decreasing use of glycogen. As I noted, at most your blood sugar rises a bit only and generally for IR people. Now, is 0.4 mmol/L enough to warrant concern? I leave that to the individual who has IR to decide.
I should have said that GNG is not just demand driven in regards to glucose. I would add it is demand driven to force protein digestion and clearance. The side effect is GNG. GNG is on demand when blood sugar is low separately from protein digestion and clearance.
I ate almost 400 g of protein with 400 g of fat for a zero ketone reading. I weighed 61 kg.
Finishingtouches
(Diana)
#37
I’m sorry. It’s me again science was never my thing so bear with me. Out of curiosity today I checked my blood ketones they’re 0.4 and glucose 79. I had 20g carbs for past several days, didn’t measure but at most this would be 25g per day. I’m curious about a few things.
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If we are saying that you become adapted after a long time on keto and thus efficient at burning ketones thus you won’t have high readings. How is it that people pursuing medical ketosis continue to have readings even after years on being on the diet?
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If in a calorie deficit wouldn’t this by virtue show up as higher ketones?
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On average I consume 20g carbs, after years on the diet I would have thought that my carb tolerance would increase?
I know numbers are just numbers but I’m truly curious if I actually am still in ketosis (as I’m fat adapted), or if there are sneaky carbs/excess protein/excess in general I’m just not carefully tracking.
The goal is better mental health and loss of a few lbs (of fat, not water weight).
Just_Juju
#38
Good question, #1, it is confusing to me too. If its expected that as your body becomes adapted and efficient at its ketone processing, making and burning just the ketones it needs, it will have lower readings, how then could anyone keep it at a higher level for some of the medical needs that require it?
ctviggen
(Bob M)
#39
#1. It’s confusing to me too. I listened to a podcast where they were putting people on a high fat keto diet due to cancer. The person being interviewed said even with the same diet, ketones and blood sugar were completely different for different people. So, some people can eat higher carbs/protein and still get very high ketones, and others can’t.
My ketones have gone down over time, but I’m in my 11th year of a ketogenic diet. And I do eat a few more carbs now (raw milk, some chocolate), but my ketones went down before that. I also like a higher protein, lower fat diet.
I’d like to do a test with higher protein lower fat and then higher fat, lower protein to see what happens. Haven’t done it yet.
And I don’t know why some people stay at high ketones and some don’t. My theory is that even with a carefully controlled diet for two people who have been on keto for the same amount of time, there could be two dramatically different ketones and blood sugar. Is it exercise? Possibly. When I exercise, which I do typically 5 days a week, my blood sugar goes up the entire day. My ketones typically go in the opposite direction of blood sugar (higher blood sugar = lowest ketones).
#2. Here’s what happened to my ketones over time for a 4.5 day fast:
#3. Not sure what you mean by this. What will happen is there is a two-phase insulin response, where the first phase is based on carbs you’ve eaten recently. If you’re keto, you’ll get a low first-phase insulin response, since your body isn’t storing insulin for use, so you’ll get a higher blood sugar relative to if you eat carbs for multiple days then eat the same meal.
Also, I think that new continuous monitors will change what we think is happening. Here’s both glucose (the darker blue line on the bottom) and ketones (the thicker, lighter blue line that ends at the top) from someone on Reddit:
https://www.reddit.com/r/ketoscience/comments/17xtqzl/i_put_a_continuous_ketone_monitor_and_a/
I don’t know exactly what he ate, but these are wide variations, from near zero ketones in the afternoon to much higher ketones at night.
I’d love to be able to do this, but the continuous ketone monitors aren’t in the US, and there are no over-the-counter continuous glucose monitors in the US yet.
Edit: He used this:
It ships from Hong Kong and only to selected countries, of which the US is not one.
Finishingtouches
(Diana)
#40
Exactly! This is what I do not understand….wouldnt they as well at some point level out and only produce what they need?
Finishingtouches
(Diana)
#41
-
I am for sure in the higher protein camp, naturally just seem to be that way unless I’m intentional with adding fats.
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I thought the body would need to tap into fat if it doesn’t have other nutrients.
Gonna go read the article