Ketone and glucose levels both up

(VLC.MD) #21

Well … ive never seen people post this data.
There could be value in that data gathering. Do you have a case example where your data led to a helpful change ?

Do you post this data ?

There is an increasing trend to discourage frequent testing even in diabetics. In Canada, Diabetics not on insulin only get 100 free strips a year because the government said it was a waste of money accomplishing nothing. Repeated studies have shown that home glucose testing isn’t helpful. I think diabetics testing when they dont feel well is a good idea. And checking here and there in the morning is a good idea. A few people in 2 decades have told me they were surprised how much their glucose went up when they ate ice cream … but most people aren’t keen enough to do that … and just knowing the carbs in the food should be just as good or better than testing.

Almost all medical Diabetic decisions are done around A1cs. The 3 month average is so much more reliable that some random glucose tests to help make decisions.

(VLC.MD) #22

You go by A1c.
Not individual readings.

I’ll say that can’t be true.
If you have a source, I’d be happy to read it.

Ketogenic eating is the best way to improve your glycemic profile. You are doing the best thing possible … Have faith !

A lower A1c would be the best method to assess how diabetic you are or aren’t. Glucose levels vary too much to be useful. With 20-50 tests you might spot a trend. There are Soooooooooooooooooooo many variables that cause individual glucose readings to fluctuate you’ll miss the forest for the trees. And then there is the variability in the strips. Variability in the blood draw.

You seem really keen on blood glucose testing. Start a thread with all your readings in it. I’ll follow along over time and you can show me how it helped you. Then we both learn something. :slight_smile:

(Ethan) #23

Well … ive never seen people post this data.
There could be value in that data gathering. Do you have a case example where your data led to a helpful change ?

Absolutely! I went to a Japanese restaurant with family a month ago. I ordered miso soup and sashimi. I know there was a tiny bit of “bad” (i.e., sweet) sauce with the eel, but it shouldn’t have spiked my sugar or insulin too much to destroy my diet. I know from online searches that miso soup is supposed to be keto friendly. However, I am always suspect of restaurant soups. I had ketones will above 1.5 and glucose below 90 when I ate dinner. I tested before bed about 3 hours later and still had glucose above 130, and ketones had dropped to 0.5. In the morning, ketones were 0.1. I know I cannot eat this miso soup again. I have had similar results to Thai tom kha soup at another restaurant. That soup is also generally keto friendly. (In fact, my wife makes it for me at home!) However, I found from my results at one restaurant, that they must be putting sugar in it. The test strips let me try something, determine it has more carbs than I can handle, and not make the same mistake again.

I only get 50 free glucose strips a month from my insurance. I pay for the rest. I have 3 meters. Flexible spending accounts cover my testing, which is not often now–just when I try a new place or food out.

(Dawn Comber) #24

My source about elevated blood sugars in the 5s causing diabetic complications comes from the book by Dr. Richard Bernstein called “Diabetes Solution.”

In his book, he discusses treatment for Type 1 and Type 2 diabetics. Here are a couple of quotes: “No matter how mild your diabetes or pre-diabetes may be, it is very unlikely that any physician can tell you how to normalize your blood sugars throughout the day without knowing what your blood glucose values are around the clock.” So I decided to do some monitoring.

I would hesitate to say that I am keen on blood glucose testing. I would prefer to say that I am keen to solve what seem to be some puzzling results - both HbA1c and BG.

(Todd Allen) #25

Yes, I don’t actually have any reference that says that will happen but I expect it is a possibility that richly supplying ketones could be supplying muscle and other tissues with fuel reducing their draw on glucose. And in the context of any insulin insensitivity the effect might be stronger as I don’t believe insulin is needed for tissues to pull in and use ketones since normally ketones are only produced when insulin is quite low. That’s my primary reason for tracking my ketone levels, if I’m producing ketones I know I’m succeeding at keeping insulin low. And if I’m keeping insulin low I’m burning fat and probably not accumulating additional fat in my liver, muscles and other places it doesn’t belong and causes trouble. And over time I ought to be regaining insulin sensitivity and restoring its power to promote muscle growth.

I doubt in the short term exogenous ketones would increase gluconeogenesis. If anything they might decrease it if they are reducing the demand for glucose. I suppose in the long term if you created a sufficient sustained caloric excess to get fat and more insulin resistant you might eventually boost gluconeogenesis.

(Mark Rhodes) #26

This has been a great and informative thread!

I and the wife also do this to try and understand if we might have an insulin response not only to a food but to artificial sweeteners. My understanding is if I have a precipitous rise in BG @T30 but a drop below baseline @T60 I could have triggered an insulin response to my “non-glycemic” event. This would be because my BG with no reason to drop other than the AS did so. This would then mean that I have insulin available beyond my need. That extra insulin responding to the AS also drops my BG levels beyond baseline.

I have had difficulty understanding and finding sources for this info about GH. Shawn Roberts among others says that the time is early morning hours. Some say 4 AM I would believe it is set by your own body’s circadian rhythms. Say I work out at 4, eat at 7 go to bed at 10 and awake at 530. If GH release was a time sensitive issue third shift people would get very little and people like myself would be robbing themselves of GH benefits. Or if what Todd says is accurate, then following whatever time I go to bed the most important time for my muscle growth would be that first three hour window.

My ultimate goal is to maintain my bodyweight and change my BF%

(Todd Allen) #27

Mark, here are some excerpts from the wikipedia page on sleep which hopefully clarify it:

During slow-wave sleep, humans secrete bursts of growth hormone.

Sleep is divided into two broad types: non-rapid eye movement (non-REM or NREM sleep) and rapid eye movement (REM sleep). non-REM and REM sleep are so different that physiologists identify them as distinct behavioral states. Non-REM sleep occurs first and after a transitional period is called slow wave sleep or deep sleep.

The sleep cycle of alternate NREM and REM sleep takes an average of 90 minutes, occurring 4–6 times in a good night’s sleep. The American Academy of Sleep Medicine (AASM) divides NREM into three stages: N1, N2, and N3, the last of which is also called delta sleep or slow-wave sleep. The whole period normally proceeds in the order: N1 → N2 → N3 → N2 → REM. REM sleep occurs as a person returns to stage 2 or 1 from a deep sleep. There is a greater amount of deep sleep (stage N3) earlier in the night, while the proportion of REM sleep increases in the two cycles just before natural awakening.

(Mark Rhodes) #28

Thanks Todd. I think basically you are confirming what I have believed to be true. As I understand GH it does come one very strong during each SWS (slow wave sleep) and also decreases in intensity as we age. GH encourages protein synthesis and lipolysis. According to this study in particular it seems as we age we do lose the ability to secrete GH however these subjects were using a typical German diet over 20 years ago.

These people who advocate a 4AM GH cycle in my understanding are misinformed. While we do have a GH secretion throughout the night, our best times are earlier in our entire sleep cycle. I will attest to this as I wake up for the last 40 years after the first 90 minutes or so. When dieting I awoke hungry. On Keto I still wake but look at my clock and go back to sleep. On weekends I awake at my normal time of 430 and ask myself 1 or 2? That is in sleep cycles. I will either then awake later at 6 or 730 rarely ever making it to 9.

(Todd Allen) #29

My impression is the key factor is sleep quality. If you are getting into and sustaining those deep/slow wave sleep phases the time on the clock shouldn’t matter. But disrupted sleep is common and if working night shifts aggravates sleeping issues anything to minimize that might be helpful.

I wasn’t getting enough sleep in summer when sunrise was early but I had to be up fairly late 2 nights per week. The bedroom curtains were thin and the morning sun would unfailingly wake me. We replaced them with heavier light blocking curtains and it allowed me to sleep an extra hour or more on days I need it. I’ve also made other changes that let me fall asleep much quicker after going to bed. The combination helped a lot and I think improved sleep has helped me nearly as much as fixing my diet.

(Damon Chance) #30

Actually i think it would be without a rise in BG. BG would be normal and then drop below baseline meaning, it didn’t spike blood sugar at all but did cause bolus insulin secretion which dropped your already normal BG. Also monitoring this with Ketones should show a drop there as well. With both numbers you can tell the food is non-glycemic but is insulinogenic.

That is, assuming that the readings are significant compared to the precision (not necessarily the accuracy) of your meter.

(Allie) #31

Sleep quality is a massive influence on all areas of life, it impacts everything.

(Mark Rhodes) #32

My thinking got dyslexic! That is what I meant to say. Thank you for the correction.

(Todd Allen) #33

Here’s a video discussion of ketone homeostasis.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UYRnsxflWNw

There were some interesting points in the video. Rising ketones lower blood glucose by suppressing hepatic glucose output and by stimulating insulin release. Rising ketones suppress utilization of ketones by muscle and other tissues boosting availability for the brain. The combination of low glucose and high ketones switches the brain to mostly burn ketones. High ketone levels shut down lipolysis which limits ketones from rising too high.

(Todd Allen) #34

I had pre-diabetic HbA1c. And I’ve since learned that due to being severely B12 deficient and having enlarged RBCs my RBC turnover was likely high which would have made my HbA1c artificially low. Perhaps explaining in part why I suffered all the major symptoms of diabetes while being repeatedly assured I was not yet diabetic.

But when I started testing my blood sugar it became really obvious what foods were spiking my blood glucose and what foods didn’t. And as I eliminated problematic foods or stopped preparing them in ways that caused trouble - like smoothies, my blood sugar normalized and my “diabetic like” symptoms of excess urination, neuropathies, etc. have improved dramatically.

And while this is merely my personal anecdote, there are people producing scientific support for the concept of improving ones health through diet by monitoring blood glucose.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0z03xkwFbw4&feature=youtu.be