Yes I have heard and read the same from Dr. Fung. Him stating that his patients, even those that lost over 100 pounds, have never had to go see plastics for removal of excess skin. I are hope that those statements are accurate.
Keto Skin - Bags and Wrinkles
Rajseth
(Raj Seth)
#16
N=1 observation. 85 lbs.12" down on pant size. no loose baggy skin, batwings, under chin etc. Oh yeah - 55 yrs, 5’8", 300lbs, now 215lbs.
I am hard keto, with target 0 carbs and NO calorie counting for anything. I have fasted 30 days in last 90.
I dont know whether it was fasting autophagy, keto, or just having the right prayers to the right gods (atheist!).
From hearing Jason Fung, the Fasting Jedi, I firmly believe it is helped by fasting triggered autophagy. If others dont want to believe it - OK by me. I dont really care
djindy
#17
Skin cells (and most cells) can be used for two different purposes with autophagy, presumably: an energy source or a protein source.
The body needs enough energy to keep things running, but also needs to recycle, build, rebuild, etc constantly, hence needing protein. So, the thinking is if you keep protein down (which fasting will do) but have enough bodyfat for energy or eat enough fat to keep things up energy wise (however you may want to do it, by eating a huge amount during non-fasting times, for instance), then you wouldn’t necessarily lower your metabolism and you could presumably also avoid getting too low on body fat before your skin starts getting eaten up for protein stores.
We typically fear that if we are too low on protein our body will start eating lean muscle tissue and organs. This is accurate enough, though there is some controversy over how it all works out. Skin is also an organ though. One can hope given it’s nature it’s the one that is attacked first when it has extra unneeded cells. Wouldn’t necessarily be bad for some other organs to get eaten a bit if the particular cells are breaking down or not functioning properly.
However, that’s all a bit of wishful thinking. I don’t think there’s enough known to say yet what will get eaten when protein is kept low (even if non-zero) and fasting, or what the long term effects will be (some indicate they loose some organ tissue but build it back up again quickly after feasting, but last I saw it was still pretty anecdotal).
There seems to be some disputes I’ve seen over the years whether while loosing lots of weight on keto a person should get more protein or less protein until they stabilize. Those that advocate for lower typically tout skin is tightened up, those who tout more advocate you don’t loose muscle or you do build I believe. I think there’s probably many factors to consider.
J_A-M
(Jay AM)
#18
You’re only describing one possible function of autophagy when there are more. Autophagy is not just a nutrition need response, it is also a response to get rid of damaged cells and damaged inner workings of cells.
I’ll link this here (gasp! Wikipedia?) it is lengthy and has well cited lines. It’s one of the more complete explanations of autophagy that I’ve come across with lots of citing.
J_A-M
(Jay AM)
#19
I’m going to share this on top of the autophagy talks. Does it work? Not sure. Does it hurt? Not really. Who doesn’t like a good skin brushing and oil rub down? I personally haven’t suffered ill effects from doing it so, maybe it will work, maybe I’ll just have soft skin and be saggy. The video is specifically about stretch marks but, I have loose skin too and am using it for that. I bought bottles of wheat germ (that are lasting much longer than expected and also smell gross but sink in quickly), and a vegan long handled brush for the dry brushing (mostly because I’m allergic to lots of random animals.) Bought them on Amazon. Maybe a regimen of it will work for you, if it doesn’t, it was a cheap trial.
atomicspacebunny
(Bunny)
#20
As we age our skin gets thinner but Bone Broth (grass fed bones) fasting can thicken the skin and tighten it up! The gelatin in Bone Broth makes the skin less susceptible to bruising and resistant to tearing!
Another note: When you do not use organic grass fed livestock (chlorophyl rich forage) sources, that’s what makes the skin saggy (trust me on this)!
Resources:
- Supplementing with Gelatin Can Help Tighten Your Skin | Beauty By replenishing collagen with gelatin, you are strengthening the bones and supporting the joints, tendons and ligaments. This will help with the appearance of skin sagging and improve the appearance of skin tightening. Also, a study showed that gelatin supplementation can improve the elasticity of skin.
J_A-M
(Jay AM)
#21
If I did trust you on this (I don’t as I’d need sources.) Then your quote is telling everyone that no matter what they do, how much they can or can’t spend, no matter what, they will get saggy skin (presumably when one has a lot to lose) if they can’t afford or source organic grassfed meat sources. I might as well cut my losses now because I’m not doing good enough and never will.
This type of thinking and quotes in this forum provide zero benefit and all harm. People struggle enough in various ways and don’t need to then be told that without organic grassfed meat, they will never be doing good enough. It’s like believing in veganism and being told I should only eat organic or I won’t benefit. Or having dairy and being told the only good dairy is raw from local sources and all other dairy is useless.
J_A-M
(Jay AM)
#23
No, it’s not information. It is an opinion that promotes your specific view without evidence. If I tell you that eating organic cauliflower is the only way to prevent kidney stones, I’m not giving you information. I’m stating my opinion like a fact to make myself look like I have authority in the matter. Saying “no harm intended” is like saying “no offense” after saying something offensive.
To be perfectly honest, I’m disappointed. I’ve read some good stuff you’ve posted and I suppose I had different expectations.
atomicspacebunny
(Bunny)
#24
Cite your sources to show that I am wrong and then we can go from their! Always eager to learn from the pros!
J_A-M
(Jay AM)
#25
Your entire basis for argument is that if I don’t spend the time to comb through the meager studies on grass fed versus grain fed meats for various health conditions, specifically pinpointing one study that says grass fed beef has no effect on sagging skin, that you get to be right and your opinion gets to be an unquestioned fact?
Fuck that. Let’s get a couple of things straight here. I never disagreed with your opinion. I disagreed with the way you presented it as a fact. I disagreed with the elitist connotation that it presents of, “If you don’t do this, you’re not doing good enough and you can’t be in the happy non saggy people club.”
Why would I waste my time disproving the opinions of the irresponsible? That’s like trying to explain to a toddler that a “fig Newton” is not a “pig Newton.” The toddler isn’t going to accept the explanation and the adult has wasted their time.
But, not having sources to disprove your opinion does not make your opinion automatically right, make no mistake. If I tell you that the core of Mars contains candy, does that mean I’m right because you can’t tell me otherwise?
Let’s look at an example we should all know in this forum. When we were first told fat was unhealthy and there wasn’t science to disprove that, was the research right?
Can you even explain why your opinion is that organic grass fed meat is the only way to reduce sagging skin? What specific properties does it have that react on such a specific level to sagging skin? What processes does it follow to achieve this? Why can’t I just eat organic grass myself and skip the middle animal? Or take chlorophyll injections? What if the meat eats dried stored grasses instead during the winter? Should I avoid winter meats because there wasn’t adequate functioning chlorophyll in the feed?
Just trust me is what they say before you drink the punch and punch has too many carbs for me to drink without questions.
atomicspacebunny
(Bunny)
#27
For starters this Doctors research demonstrates subjects that looks not so good for the skin, then secondly you have the omega 3 and omega 6 ratios being off by an average of 10 to 100 in grain fed (carbs) livestock which also effects the skin, hair and nails in humans!
Story at-a-glance:
Dull, wrinkled, sagging skin and dry, brittle hair and nails are common signs of aging, which in large part can be attributed to the loss of collagen that occurs naturally with age
Your body cannot produce the essential amino acids that make up collagen, so you must obtain them through your diet. Collagen supplements have become a popular way to combat age-related loss of collagen
Recent testing reveals popular collagen and bone broth products contain a number of potentially hazardous contaminants, including antibiotics, prescription drug metabolites, parabens, steroids and insecticides
These contaminants suggest the collagen is sourced from animals raised in CAFOs. To avoid exposure to CAFO-related contaminants, make sure the product is USDA “100% Organic” and/or certified grass fed by the AGA
Gelatin is what you get when you cook collagen. Hydrolyzed collagen requires more intensive processing. While both contain the same amino acids, they have different chemical properties and therefore differ in how you can use them …More
Acetix
(Michael)
#28
I personally supplement with 10-15,000mg of Vitamin C per day as Sodium Ascorbate. It is one supplement that is not discussed on this forum.
Wikipedia says:
Vitamin C is a cofactor in at least eight enzymatic reactions in animals (and humans) important in many essential functions, including wound healing. In humans, vitamin C deficiency compromises collagen synthesis, contributing to the more severe symptoms of scurvy.
Scurvy is an avitaminosis resulting from lack of vitamin C, since without this vitamin, collagen made by the body is too unstable to perform its function.
Can somebody PM me on how to do weblinks showing a linked page excerpt.Thanks.
Brunneria
#29
Hi,
I am increasingly wary of the different types of Vit C supplementation nowadays.
Had some nasty experiences with it back in the day, with loose bowels, amongst other things.
Then I saw a couple of Dr Berg vids on the subject.
Now, I don’t rate the man very highly in some respects, but he is spot on when he discusses Vit C and its relationship with other vits, esp Vit K, and the need for balance.
So now if I take any Vit C at all, I take smaller doses, and natural source. The difference is noticable.
(and recently, I have been Zero Carb, which ‘everyone’ says means you don’t need any supplements with. Especially no vit C. Well, apparently I do. I take Vit D3 for a longterm deficiency, and then K2 to help with that, and then got inflamed gums a couple of weeks back, not gum disease. Just a hint of Scurvy. Probably all that K2 without Vit C to balance it. The inflamation disappeared within 24 hrs once I added back my natural source C)
Sorry - just realised this is off topic, cos not related to loose skin.
(edited for a LOT of typos 
)
J_A-M
(Jay AM)
#31
Nothing in this article supports your original problem quote.
Mercola’s article in summary is promoting the idea that collagen supplementation may be a good thing and to be aware of where it’s sourced from. He goes on to explain that multiple things we typically see from CAFO sources are found in products labeling themselves falsely organic.
Not a single thing in this entire article or the cited studies says, “When you do not use organic grass fed livestock (chlorophyl rich forage) sources, that’s what makes the skin saggy.”
I have no clue how you came to that conclusion from that article or the linked studies but, you came up with it on your own. You cut out everything else to form an opinion that supports your ideal or you severely misunderstood the article. Either way, your opinion stands as an opinion and my opinion is unchanged. You presented an opinion as a fact that is intended to cause harm. It is not simple information, it is not a fact.
The only reason I have spent (wasted) so much time debating this is because I hate these holier than thou statements. They are a poison in any community.
Acetix
(Michael)
#32
Dr Berg is a Chiropractor. He produces nice short videos on numerous topics but I would generally consider his take on things as a reason for more personal research. Two of your linked videos highlight the issue of vitamin C deficiency. His video on Ascorbic Acid totally neglects to explain why most vertebrates are able to synthesise it without the associated vitamins he mentions.
Vitamin C has no effect on Ketone levels. I know this because I measure several times a day. I also supplement with vitamin D3, K2 and Magnesium. I take a buffered form of vitamin C called Sodium Ascorbate as part of my Ketoaide formula.
The main point of my post is that if you want to increase collagen synthesis it is a good idea to supplement with Vitamin C. If one does not like the vitamin C flush, a good thing in itself, one can use the liposomal encapsulated form for but this is quite expensive.
I would also like to add that I have no issues with loose skin.
IceNine
(Karl)
#33
Holy Crap, a million times THIS.
I used to read the MFP forums. I can’t do it anymore between the “What would you do to the person above you?” posts (Apparent General MFP Answer: “Insult their diet and tell them their cited experts are all frauds, of course.”) I got to the point where I really don’t give a crap about whether they believe what I believe.
…and to juxtapose, J_A-M seems to be showcasing another situation that seems to crop up on a lot of eating lifestyle forums, be it MFP, reddit’s r/keto or any other: once something has been touted enough times as fact, it becomes religious dogma.
I never understood why people would try to drown out a completely reasonable position when the dogmatic one sounds so darned unlikely. But entire wars have started throughout human history over the idea of God’s existence, so I guess I shouldn’t be surprised that someone might think that grass-fed beef is a method to pull back sagging skin, even if the idea seems ridiculous on its face.
Add in the words “Trust me on this”, and you have all the workings of a snake-oil salesman, something we life-long yo-yo dieters have seen at many points in our lifetimes.I’m not saying atomicspacebunny is trying to fleece anyone, just that she’s doing things that humans are wont to do when they’re convinced of something.
I mean, hey, the idea that a cosmic Jewish zombie can make you live forever if you symbolically drink his blood and eat his flesh, telepathically tell him that he is your master so he can counter an evil force in your soul present in all of humanity because a rib-woman listened to a talking snake and was subsequently convinced to eat the fruit from a magical tree.
It seems ridiculous on its face, but it’s the accepted dogma of hundreds of millions of people.
atomicspacebunny
(Bunny)
#34
Hold on their!
That is a rather bold statement that I am “intending to cause harm” seemingly your emotional reactions are visceral rather than cerebral? Which may or may not appeal to the interests and questions of the original poster of this thread seeking some speculation, opinions etc. about this subject!
But anyway here are some more facts:
Grass-fed livestock is rich in retinol or the fat soluble form of vitamin A. Wherein grain-fed is not and lacks this essential nutrient (e.g. sagging skin, dark circle under eyes, eyes sinking into eye sockets etc.) and as Dr. Berg’s analogy for eating non-organic livestock products like meats and butter etc. while on a ketogenic diet “you will end up looking like a crackhead (3:28 on video).” Their is no rule that you have to eat organic grass fed etc. but their is a growing body of evidence that lack of quality does effect the body in negative ways like personal appearance.
5 Critical Ketosis Tips