Keto diet discussed for type 2 diabetes on ABC Health (Australia)


(Richard Morris) #1

Dr Norman Swan discussed the ketogenic diet in response to a question from a listener who is also in the Low carb Canberra group. [ US readers may know of his son Jonathan Swan of Axios who is a well known political reporter ]

Q: Restricting carbohydrates is more effective than restricting Calories. It’s frustrating that this isn’t mentioned.
A: Some evidence on low carb diets. Ketogenic diets are not sustainable in the long term, but there is some anecdotal evidence that it does work. Staying in ketosis is tough, your breath smells, and you have to watch your weight, but you do lose weight which is the likely mechanism.


(Richard Morris) #2

My response from my Uni account

The myth that Norman can’t apparently see past - and to be fair most physicians can’t see past, is that metabolic syndrome is caused by weight gain. And following from that myth the non-sequitur that weight loss therefor must reverse metabolic syndrome.

Jeff Volek’s crossover eucaloric dietary carbohydrate restriction study [ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6629108/ ] took 16 people with metabolic disease and gave them 3 different diets in crossover (4 weeks each) and PREVENTED them losing weight (by requiring they eat more calories if they started to lose weight) and reversed metabolic disease for which one of the hallmarks is obesity (elevated triglycerides, depressed HDL, elevated fasting glucose, elevated systolic BP).

To clarify, they took 1 of the 5 markers of metabolic syndrome off the table and still reversed 3 out of 4 of the remaining markers - on a low carb diet for 9 of the 16 subjects.

The mechanism of action of a ketogenic diet against type 2 diabetes is not weight loss. Glycostasis occurs in a day. Weight loss (absent the dehydration from glycogen drawdown) takes at least a week.

The mechanism of action is replacing a broken homeostatic regulation (insulin regulation of post prandial hyperglycemia) with a functioning one (hepatic regulation of hypoglycemia).

I suspect Dr Swan knows this. Every doctor learned about gluconeogenesis in first year biochemistry. It’s the reason why humans don’t fall into a coma in their sleep. Glycogen is simply the buffer. What isn’t well understood is how the dots connect in type 2 diabetes.

The problem is when you eat carbohydrates for breakfast you take your blood glucose out of the range of the livers regulatory influence, and if you are insulin resistant you become reliant upon a dysfunctional pancreatic homeostat in an insulin resistant body, and reactive hypoglycemia requires that you medicate with carbohydrates all day.

The reason that the other markers of metabolic syndrome change is probably that if you don’t need insulin to respond to the transitory hyperglycemia from a meal, you need to make less insulin;

  • Elevated insulin at the kidneys increases sodium reabsorption, excess sodium in circulation increases serum osmolarity, that draws water from surrounding tissue, increased serum volume can promote hypertension. [ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/7512468/ ]

  • The ABCA1 transporter that effluxes cholesterol from pre-atherosclerotic macrophages into nascent HDL particles is sensitive to an insulin nadir [ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/20733269/ ]

  • Drawdown of circulating triglycerides by beta-oxidation is sensitive to insulin mediated acetyl-CoA carboxylase action via malonyl-CoA on the CPT-1a (fatty acid) transporter of the mitochondria. [ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC281779/ ]

  • And glucose is self-evidently not elevated when the liver is regulating serum glucose.

I disagree with Dr Swans conclusion that a ketogenic diet is unsustainable. I have been on a well formulated ketogenic diet since May 20, 2014 and my HbA1c before going low carb was 11.2% and my HbA1c from November 2014 until now has remained at 5.2%.

One concern with advising patients to attempt a ketogenic diet is apparently the worry that low carb diets are high in saturated fat, and circulating saturated fat is associated with elevated cardiovascular disease. I would draw your attention back to the Hyde study (which included Ronald Krauss a subject matter expert on fatty acids and lipoprotein subfractions) which showed that on the low carb arm of the trial circulating SFAs in both triglycerides and phospholipids were lower than on the high carb arm, and that an LDL lipoparticle subfraction analysis showed a less atherosclerotic pattern in low carb vs high carb arms. Arguably a diet high in saturated fats is less atherogenic.

regards,

Richard Morris BSc (hons) biochemistry


(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #3

Well said. Richard! I’ve been eating a ketogenic diet for 4 1/2 years (since Jan 2, 2017). There’s nothing unsustainable about it. Staying in ketosis is easy peasy and my breath does not stink. In fact, not only breath, but my previous body odor disappeared as well. Healthwise, keto is the best thing I ever did for myself. I ate high carb for 70+ years and don’t miss any of the high carb food faves I no longer eat.


(UsedToBeT2D) #4

I agree 100%. I am approaching 2 years Keto. I am medication free and in remission of 25 years T2D. I am still a bit overweight from “normal category”, after 30 years clinically obese. My A1C went from 11 mg/dL to 6.3 mg/dL. The high carb and calorie restriction diets of my past just contributed to a worsening progression of my diabetes. I have never looked better and felt better. Actually, the longer I go, the easier it gets with a Keto way of life. The only thing not sustainable for me is my mail order Metformin, insulin, statin drugs, and every 3 month visits to the doctor to tell me that my diabetes is not under control. How crazy is that?


(Bob M) #5

Ha! I like this statement.

I have both Richard and Michael beat: Started 1/1/14.


(Richard Morris) #6

yeah but I started on 4/20 :smiling_imp:


(Richard Morris) #7

WOW. Very few people can come back from 25 years of derangement. Well done.

BTW I think your HbA1c is % not mg/dl. There is a new unit in Europe called teh IFCC measurement which is in units of mmol/ mol


(UsedToBeT2D) #8

Yes, your right on the A1C unit.


(UsedToBeT2D) #9

I am still deranged according to my wife, but the diabetes is under control with diet alone. I was in denial for many years, doctor prescribed insulin about 1 year before I went keto. I think that was rock bottom for me, when I decided that I had to change. Your podcasts were my inspiration. Thank you.


(UsedToBeT2D) #10

I wasn’t diagnosed until 35 yo, but likely T2D 10 years prior.


(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #11

The late Dr. Joseph Kraft used to believe that many people could be demonstrated to be diabetic years or decades before their glucose finally got out of control. He called it “occult diabetes” or “diabetes in situ.”


#12

Dr. Swan is a Mediterranean diet spruiker. His track record is of being highly sceptical of anything outside of mainstream, pharmaceutical-driven medicine. He is a journalist more than a medical doctor. MD is a qualification he has but journalism is what he does. As an audience we do not know his metabolic health status, but by following the standard of care and mainstream health advice he has not yet found a moment of epiphany that helps him question what he thinks he knows. He differs from the BBC’s Dr. Michael Mosely who diagnosed himself as TOFI and pre-diabetic and followed a path of metabolic disease treatment discovery using diet and feeding windows.

I listen to Norman’s programs regularly as he is on the national Australian public (funded) radio broadcaster.

The preceding report to the listener’s low carb response comment was on research at Sydney University using a mouse model the showed the benefits to longevity in mice using a low protein, low fat, high carbohydrates (resistant starch) diet. In the reporting of that study allusions and suppositions were made to human diets and health. Look at the headline.


(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #13

Before accepting the conclusions of any rodent study, look to see what the diet(s) actually consisted of. The study should either list the specific percentages of the ingredients, or it should give the manufacturer’s formula number, so that you can go on the manufacturer’s Web site and get the percentages. The amount of dextrose (sugar) in even a “low-carb” rodent diet is startlingly high.

According to Dr. Petro Dobromylskij, the British veterinary anaesthesiologist, it is nearly impossible to get rats and mice into ketosis, without starving them and feeding them choline. Human beings are the only mammals that enter ketosis readily and without starvation.


When blood sugar remains at 100 or higher
(Richard Morris) #14

I replied to that article (on Steve Simpson’s work at Uni of Sydney) as well … cos of course I did.

Petro Dobromylskij is correct that it is extremely difficult to get Rats on a ketogenic diet, but Steve Simpson seems to have found a way to do it though he doesn’t realize he has. His diet is 10% protein, low fat, and high carbs that the host can’t digest easily and the task of offloaded to the gut biome. Want to know what nutrients the obligate anaerobic bacteria are making for the host (rat) from those indigestible carbohydrates? Butyric acid, a short chained saturated fatty acid. So the rats are really on a high fat diet, and if he did a respiratory gas exchange analysis he would see that.

But what is even funnier is how enterocytes in the gut wall metabolize butyric acid into beta-hydroxy-butyrate [ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1243643/ ] - a molecule that I’m sure you know about :slight_smile: His long lived rats are running on mostly ketones. Just like humans on a high fat low carb diet.

No wonder those rats live long and prosper. :vulcan_salute:


When blood sugar remains at 100 or higher
(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #15

Guess I’ll have to check that out. I want my sweet rats to live as long as possible! Even though pet rats live about twice as long as their wild cousins, their lifespan is still all too short. . . . :frowning_face:


(Gabe “No Dogma, Only Science Please!” ) #16

Extremely disappointing commentary from Norman Swan. He’s normally the voice of reason in Australia’s public health discourse. He’s been right on the money with his Covid reporting. I actually noted that a few hours ago (which seems to have been after he produced the content in @richard’s OP) he retweeted something about the “benefits” of a high carb low protein diet, which just about blew my socks off:

I thought it was satire till I clicked through. WTAF?


(Peter) #17

I’ve seen his name pop up a few times re low-carb, and he’s well and truly in the industry’s pocket.