If you're tracking calories...PLEASE buy/use a food scale

(Windmill Tilter) #61

Yes they do. People often confuse the concept of “energy balance” with their own interpretation of the somewhat amorphous acronym “CICO”. They are not even remotely the same thing.

Here is the difference. Many scientist and researchers have claimed that Calories In vs Calories Out is a vast oversimplification of a complex, hormonally controlled, and non-static metabolic equation. No scientist or researcher has ever claimed that energy balance does not play an important role in fat loss. Let’s make a list of people who acknowledge that energy balance plays a role:

  • Dr. Phinney
  • Dr. Volek
  • Dr. Fung
  • Dr. Westman
  • Lyle McDonald
  • Chris Masterjohn
  • Mark Sisson

I would keep listing names but then I realized that there isn’t a single scientist, or a single study that I’ve ever read that has ever claimed that energy balance didn’t play a role in fat loss, so it’s pointless to list the ones that do. I’ve read many people argue that hormones are as important, and many who say they’re more important, but I’ve never read anything that said energy balance was irrelevant.

(Windmill Tilter) #62

I think this is true. You could also say “The concept of “energy balance” encompasses the hormonal model of obesity, and is vastly improved by it.”

(Scott) #63

Over at MFP it was always the Law Of Thermodynamics and nothing else would be tolerated.

(Windmill Tilter) #64

@Rclause No argument here!

The vocal minority at MFP are very silly, poorly informed, and they have their own unsupportable articles of faith. There is absolutely nothing about the hormonal model of obesity that challenges the laws of thermodynamics.

When gherlin is upregulated after eating high fructose corn syrup, and we respond to the sensation of hunger by eating excess calories, that’s hormones influencing “calories in”.

When a resting metabolic rate is maintained during an extended fast by the adrenal system upregulating norepinephrine, which facilitates lyposlysis, that’s hormones influencing “calories out”.

It’s impossible to talk about human metabolism without talking about hormones. This is largely because they regulate every single component of human metabolism.

(traci simpson) #65

Metric? I don’t know which is why I need a digital scale! Me and numbers do not get along.

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #66

What happened if you quoted Taubes on which way the causality runs?

:smile:

(Scott) #67

Taubes would get them going but throw some Fung at them and the pitchforks would come out.

(Alec) #68

RAOTFL :joy::joy::joy:. That’s gotta be my favourite line from these forums ever!!! Utterly brilliant! :joy::joy::joy::joy:

(Alec) #69

Despite this thread having been hijacked by this CICO discussion, what a wonderful thread it is. To have people explain how they look at this CICO vs hormonal thing has been wonderful.

Personal opinion, my award for best explanation goes to @Karim_Wassef. Brilliant explanation of a tricky arena. :+1:

Karim, I have bookmarked your explanation to be able to use it myself. Thank you!!

(Karim Wassef) #70

Thanks… I will say that Nick’s @Don_Q research into the metabolic rate variability as a function of diet actually helped me understand it better myself. If you haven’t checked out his accountability thread, I strongly recommend it.

He has an RMR and tests his own as a function of many variables, so he’s given us a peak behind the curtain of metabolic adaptation.

(Cristian Lopez) #71

1.) Through my studies, people aiming to lose weight for the first time should be measuring and counting calories, and I know the argument that Keto depends on the ability of hormonal response which is very TRUE!!, but combing that hormonal response factor with a tracked deficit = EVEN MORE WEIGHT LOSS!! Its like putting Cole in a furnace, Low quality vs High quality determines temperature it can burn at, but provided you increase more quantity of either one than that can also affect and increase the temperature! Its a balance of Keto and eating less for the best results possible.

2.) I strongly and will religiously do non-dairy keto for the rest of my life!! I made that choice 3 years ago when I was 14 and I know this will soon be part of my future career!

with that said…

Im going to be realistic and say most people starting do not know how to eat intuitively.
Human nature is stubborn, and when just saying eat out of hunger than let me tell you I can easily down a whole bag of pork rinds and poor avocado oil on my salad topped with nuts and bacon crumbles and have a few spoon fulls of nut butter afterwards.

Ik probably a very vague fallacy…but think REALISTIC for a sec and realize that people (At the beginning should track to keep a reference of what portions equal so they can reach a deficit of calories. Then later on they can memorize what a certain portion equals so they dont go over board.

3.) Personally I track on my fitness pal because my goals are maintaining a lean physique/Prevent cancer/liver cirrhosis/ and expanding my longevity.

Sorry if there are typos, I typed this while I was at school eating my grilled chicken strips and avocado mayo /1 out of 2 meals I have in a day :drooling_face: :drooling_face:

(traci simpson) #72

So you’re 14? You know your metabolism is 6 times that of most of us on this thread right? Can’t address #1 or #3 because I was stuck on your age and why are even doing this. I’m not being mean, just the fact that you are so young and young people can eat pizzas, burgers, ice cream and still have the metabolic ability to burn it off doing nothing and you will go through so many changes, I just can’t imagine you have to worry about anything.

(mole person) #73

@Diygurl19

He’s 17. Also, there are plenty of kids now with all sorts of metabolic disfunction from obesity to type 2 diabetes as well as auto-immune issues.

(Karim Wassef) #74

If I could go back in time and explain this to my teenage self, I would have enjoyed life a whole lot more and been healthier today.

Now I have to reverse the destructive effects of my choices, even those I made as a teenager and still with me to this day.

It’s kind of why we send kids to school… so every generation doesn’t have to start from zero again… and can build on what our generation learned…

Today, we differentiate between carbs, fats and protein… their generation is going to be so much smarter… they’ll differentiate between different fatty acids, amino acids, glucose, fructose, dextrose. There’s 20 different kinds of amino and fatty acids alone and they have different hormonal, epigenetic, and metabolic effects.

We’re finally getting back to reality… these kids will have a long & fun journey of discovery…

(Alec) #75

And they are still teaching kids at school that fat is bad… some generations will have to unlearn stuff before they start learning…

Nope, if we tell people that, this puts people into the low calorie diet thinking, and we know this fails 99% of the time. If you try to lose weight by eating less calories than you expend before you are fat adapted, we know this reduces your metabolism. Keto teaches you to rediscover your hunger signals, and it is an important part of keto.

(Robert C) #76

Sort of agree on the counting calories point.

People should not count for guidance - “How much bigger or smaller should my dinner be?” to hit some arbitrary (or even pretty well calculated) number. They should train their hunger signaling instead.

But, people might want to count calories when things aren’t working. The sedentary Keto dieter that is gaining weight because they’re downing butter and / or cream and /or MCT coffees, fat bombs, whiskey, nuts, cheese on everything etc. (all mentioned at least a few times as “Keto okay” just due to their low carb count or inability to push you out of ketosis) might find they are actually overdoing it and not allowing any local fat stores a chance to be used.

Even if they have people on this site review some of their typical meals, it would be difficult to find a too-high calorie trend.

(Karim Wassef) #77

Portion control is a biproduct of keto eating. It goes back to the natural mechanisms where sufficient fat and protein trigger satiation and then you stop.

I would eat 6000-7000 calories pre-keto and still be hungry. The hormonal response was completely broken.

On keto, I would struggle to break 2500 because I was completely satiated. I can honestly say that I never felt full until I started eating this way.

I had to push my limits on food to break into the 3000+ to actually gain weight.

So the calories and portions come about as a result of the macro choices.

Is it possible to eat fat to excess? Yes - is not counting calories the problem? No. There are usually deeper emotional roots when you push well beyond satiation… fear, depression, loneliness.

The more likely issue in a stall is improper macro assessment… eating too much protein vs fat, or going over on carbs due to error in calculations…

Another is consuming inflammatory foods that still fall under the keto macro guidelines but don’t work for you.

If you’re trying to debug a problem, maybe counting calories is one more place to look - but it’s not how you live.

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #78

And afterward, too, is my understanding. Deliberate calorie restriction seems to be the problem, whereas the sort of calorie restriction that results from eating to satiety has a very different effect.

This is nitpicking, not criticism, but I make a distinction between feeling full, which is what I felt when eating carbohydrate, and feeling satisfied, which is my experience on keto. By eating to satiety, I find myself having had enough while being nowhere near full. The difference is that nowadays, I always have room for more, but don’t want any, whereas before, I had no room whatsover to cram in any more food, but I was still quite hungry.

(Karim Wassef) #79

Good point. I meant “felt satiated” = not hungry any more.

(Alec) #80

Paul
This is really worth repeating and talking about. I am only now, after a year on keto, learning the nuances of hunger, and learning to tell the difference between subtly different levels of hunger and satiation and feeling full.

But for me it is critical to achieve weight loss during keto. Counting calories does not work, but understanding your feelings of hunger really well does.