Hi to all please help

(Bob M) #41

Have you tried dropping fat and increasing protein?

Dairy is a tough one. Some (many?) people have problems with dairy. Although I don’t find myself having problems with dairy, I don’t eat much of it. Particularly since I’ve been doing Maria Emmerich’s higher protein, lower fat and PSMF diet with my wife. That involves no dairy at all.

And some people eat more when they eat dairy. And it’s easy to do, particularly with butter. If you ate butter by itself, you wouldn’t eat much. But if you melt butter into something, you can eat a ton of butter. Is it calories or mass though? I lean toward it being mass.


(Geoffrey) #42

This is one of the things that I find interesting about how we eat in the ketogenic spectrum and it can also be so confusing to many, especially newcomers and that is everyone is different and different things work differently in different people. Yeah, I had fun with that.
For me, higher fat works better but for others it’s higher protein. Proof there is no set standard and everyone must be their own N of 1.

I tolerate dairy very well. In fact I love dairy in the form of cheese, yogurt, heavy cream and sour cream but that’s my problem with it, I like it too much. It’s become an extreme trigger food for me. It’s become my sugar so I’ve committed to abstain from all dairy.

(Robin) #43

This makes me quite sad. The heavy whipping cream part. Even my coffee would grieve.


That definitely isn’t true for everyone… I prefer to eat butter alone or with my sponge cakes… I could eat very much of it that way I suppose (I never tried. once I ate 100g and that is actually way too much for me already). I don’t want it melted at all. Though I can put it into my egg milks but that’s a minimal amount as cream or milk works way better in it.

But it’s individual as almost everything food related, of course. I prefer butter alone or with little else (never with meat though) as I can enjoy the subtle lovely flavor the best that way. It is a somewhat luxury item, I don’t waste it as cooking fat! :smiley: (Can be good in baking though.) Lard is good enough for that! :wink:

Higher protein and lower fat would work for my fat loss and others’ too, of course as that would mean very little calories… I would be super hungry and dissatisfied though (depends on what we call low and high… higher protein alone doesn’t help). Still, it’s an interesting experiment, I keep trying to do it but many years and I still fail… I can’t eat lean. But I know now that lots of lean pork and organs are the best if I want to eat little. Satiating and easy to eat much enough but easy to stop when I am not hungry anymore. I just need to avoid much dairy, some is fine even if it means a lot of sugar, it doesn’t make me hungry. It may make others though and anyway, it’s often very easy to overdo soft or liquid, creamy dairy items… (But many of us can overdo cheese too, no problem… Cheese is so good!)

I love and regularly consume cheese, milk, whipping cream, sour cream, quark, Greek yogurt (rarely, I can’t use it in moderation), butter and other dairy items. I love them all. Thankfully I realized they are a potential problem and learned to be happy with with small amounts and only a few kinds every day… My current amount is fine, I just need to stick to it.
Dairy is wonderful :smiling_face_with_three_hearts: But meat satiates me.
I do need dairy, I would quit in no time without the variety and other things they provide.

At this point I can’t even imagine life without milk and I spent quite several years without it… But I had all the plants back then.
Wait, I did almost-paleo (I never gave up green peas until years into keto when I still didn’t gave them up, they just pretty much disappeared) and I know we had 1-2 lactose free years… It’s like my egg-free year(s?), I have NO IDEA how I survived that. Because no meat, that was easy, I barely ever ate meat until a few years ago and had several fully vegetarian years, they were nice (at least as much as they could be with all the carbs. keto wasn’t enough for me). But no dairy or no eggs? Even one day is almost completely out of question (I could do one but why would I want that if I eat to begin with?).

(Bob M) #45

I still use cream in my coffee (and sometimes tea), just not much.

But when I started keto, I was emphasizing fat. So, I was eating all the fattiest cuts of meats, processed meats, liverwursts, hot dogs, sausages, bacon, recipes with tons of butter, recipes with tons of cheeses, etc. Then I started testing lean meats to see if my blood sugar would go up (it didn’t). And what I found was that I felt better eating leaner. So, I pretty much never eat sausage, bacon, hot dogs, liverwursts, high fat processed meats (do eat ham), recipes with lots of added butter/cheeses, etc. Can’t say “never”, but it’s close to never.

There are definitely people who thrive on high fat, particularly animal fat. I just find that I overeat fat. Bacon, for instance. I could easily eat a pound of bacon. After I’ve already eaten dinner. Nuts are evil too.


I minimize fat since ages but it’s still high-fat… Well I am close to carnivore by default, of course I need “much” fat. (It’s little but in ratio and joy, not too bad.)
I probably drastically dropped my fat intake when I went low-carb (with some difficulties in the beginning… it wasn’t easy), I couldn’t change much when I went keto and carnivore is full with lovely fatty items too… But after some years I trained myself to eat leaner meats as much as possible. Tricky as I usually dislike lean meats but I do like pork even when it’s somewhat lean :smiling_face_with_three_hearts:. If it’s too lean, I just add something fatty, a bit so it’s still lean enough as long as I don’t add a ton of fatty dairy and yolks, I can’t balance out that.
I don’t even make recipes with much added fat, I usually bake and fry with zero. Fat in meats is more satiating (and usually more satisfying) than added fat but fatty meats are less satiating than lean ones (but they all should be red). I can eat a lot of pork shoulder but can’t eat nearly as much green ham (I can easily overeat fat purely from meat if I like the meat. and fatty pork is very likeable). I never could eat more than 60g bacon on any day though. If I eat a lot of meat, it’s almost never processed (well, never as I keep myself back very much when we have tender smoked pork hock, that is pure bliss!).

Nuts and oily seeds are problematic for many of us. Not for me anymore but I had some problem with peanuts… I could eat so much in so little time, salty, crunchy, fatty, a bit sweet, roasted… Almost irresistable and if I actually started, stopping was hard. Carnivore helped but my off days still aren’t peanut free, I just eat way less and not so often even when I am off.

There are so many wonderful food items, I don’t even understand why people buy the usual supermarket treats so often when simple things are tastier… They must have a very different taste. I did like certain not so great things but for dessert, not instead of a proper meal (and they usually were homemade anyway, with a decent amount of good nutrition). When I am hungry, I always want some proper food and I mostly had this all my life. I ate sweets and crunchy treats in the end of my meals… Now I must end my meals with fatty protein especially if I am off and my dessert was a bit carby.

A decent amount of fat is needed, I would starve with lean food… But I couldn’t eat like that either. So it’s not hopeless.


:rofl:Nuts are evil too. Giggling here in the waiting room at that.

I did try to lower my fat and increase my protein, but I don’t enjoy leaner types of meat so that was a bust. I felt deprived all the time, like back on the low fat diet. Ugh. No way.

I hate bland and dry. I’ll take a ribeye any day over a chicken breast. I prefer dark meat with skin over dry white breast meat. I love pork if it’s moist and not overcooked. I don’t eat hot dogs at all, or sausages much, and I rarely eat processed lunch meats. I will eat an extra thick breakfast ham steak though. Yum. Liverwurst is maybe twice a year at most. I do love ribeyes though, so much that I can’t even enjoy a filet mignon or strip steak anymore. The flavor and impact to tenderness that the fat gives is like comparing silky smooth anything to a crumbly dry version of it.

I used to eat more hard cheeses in my first year but now it’s a couple times a week. I DO eat a lot of cream cheese, yogurt, and HWC, and a lot of butter. I don’t think I would enjoy this WOE as much without those fats.

When butter or ghee or tallow won’t work, I use avocado oil mostly. Olive oil is rare now, only occasionally. And coconut oil sometimes.

I love shrimp, cod, crab meat, and salmon when it’s smoked Nova Scotia lox, or if the salmon is fresh and pacific caught, which is hard to get when you live near Chicago. LOL We eat cod and shrimp mostly.

Roasts have to have more fat to them. Again, I hate bland and dry. And I love corned beef roasts.

So, getting less fat when I increase my protein is rather hard because it comes with all the protein I enjoy.


There are plenty of potentially great meats in-between :slight_smile: Even I have found something for me among them. I wouldn’t normally touch chicken breast (not just way too lean but I dislike the texture) or really lean pork loin but when making a roast, even green ham and a not super lean (still very lean though) pork loin becomes a tender juicy thing (juiciness varies but it’s not dry at all) and it’s way leaner than my average meat should be (if I don’t listen to the siren song of fatty dairy). I quite enjoy having some leaner meat when hungry and then some fattier meat. This week I have green ham and pork shoulder roast (and other things), this is a good combo if I manage to focus on fresh meat and eat little else. Very enjoyable too :slight_smile: Though I don’t always get this tasty pork shoulder. This is a super fatty cut but it lost plenty of lard and still can be paired up with my lean pork.
I like organs too, they end up nicely but not totally lean when I fry them or make them into a stew… Too bad they are too nutritious and some are harder to get too so I rarely can eat them. But it’s fine now and then.

I am very thankful my lean (to my standards. never fully so!) roasts aren’t bland or dry! But yes, the fatty ones are the best, fat layer on top, getting all crunchy… Oh that is amazing. So I eat both at the same time. Sometimes together but usually not, the tasty jellied fatty liquid on the bottom of the oven pan is quite nice with the leanest pieces.

So it works for me but obviously each to their own! I couldn’t eat most of the lean meats but some are fine in moderation, made in the right way, paired up with something fattier when it’s needed.

I can relate. I had times when I couldn’t imagine how to have any deficit while getting the minimum protein I need for satiation, it was theoretically impossible. Even with lean pork as my number one item, I have difficulties. (Because of fatty dairy and yolks but still. I thought it would help more. It does help and it’s a key but I have a door with multiple locks and leanish meat only opens one and the door is just as closed as ever.)

(Bob M) #49

If you take a bottom round roast (or top round or end round), salt it, let it sit in the fridge for a while, a few hours or overnight. Then put it in a 425 F oven for 15 minutes, then cook at 200 F (open door to let out heat before hitting 200) until it hits say 120F as an internal temperature. Then put in the fridge, a few days later, cut into thin slices and briefly fry up in tallow/butter. It’ll be moist and flavorful. You’ve saved about 6 grams of fat and added 1 gram of protein per 3 ounces. For 12 ounces, that’s 24 grams of fat lost and 4 grams of protein added, relatively speaking. 180 calories if those are important.



And protein has a much higher thermic effect than fat. By lowering fat and increasing protein, you’re theoretically increasing your calorie expenditure to simply process your food.

While we’re on the subject of protein. (Increased ketogenesis caused by higher protein? Hmm…)

I realize many people still like to eat higher fat while keto, but there’s plenty of evidence pointing to higher protein being good.


Thanks I screenshot those instructions!!


Hi this turned out to be such an interesting discussion. I suppose I still have to find what works for me. As always very interesting and informative to read the posts. Thank you.


Sorry, I haven’t read all the responses here, just yet. I want to share my experience as it might help. I have fasted since 2021, the Gin Stevens way, focusing on clean fasting mostly with a 5-8 hour window (eating all the things) and several weeks of ADF in December 2021. Most of my weight loss occured during those two weeks and I easily maintained but didn’t lose any more. Meanwhile perimenopause symptoms are starting to form a posse and kick my ass. At some point I get “fast like a girl” by Peltz. I try to flex my fasting and incorporate carbs…I gain 10lbs. yuck. I then got hold of Dr Elizabeth Bright’s book “good fat is good for women” So now since Feb 2024 I have been trying the zero carb route and I have lost the ten + 2 lbs. The best thing is the hormones are recovering. I still try to fast when it’s easy but if I start to get mad or stressed about I eat meat. I also found over the years that ginger, maca, and aswaghanda taken as needed have helped with pain and mood. Maca is a mood lifter and energizes. And aswaghanda is good for anxiety and calming. I don’t take them every day just if I am feeling off. I hope this helps.


Thank you !!! I’m in a similar position. Perimenopause is causing me severe symptoms. I’m trying different type of HRT from Monday. I know I need to get back on to keto I know that’s the answer for me. It’s so hard once fallen of the horse.