Having my mindset challenged

[Shinita]

Okay then, it works for her, you have the info! I saw too much “thinness == health” lately and am a bit trigger-happy now I fear.

[ffskier]

Absolutely.

[lfod14]

She’s not militant or psycho, and she’s not doing it for ethical reasons, but rather health reasons.

Which is exactly why she’s like that, but sadly she is very much an anomaly in the vegan world.

I used to work with a veggie, who (does) do it for what she feels is ethical reasons, yet totally sane, she also doesn’t pretend that it doesn’t require a lot of supplementation to make up for the shortcomings of not eating meat.

[MeganNZ]

It is possible, of course, to do experiments on animals, but then generalising from an animal model to human beings is tricky. Human beings are the only mammals able to enter ketosis easily, in all other animals it is a condition entered only in the later stages of starving to death.

Yes, translating data from animal experiments to humans is problematic. But, just as a fyi, dogs enter ketosis quite easily with the right macros. It is used to try to slow and sometimes stop cancer growth and spread. They don’t register high ketones like some humans can, but they are definitely in ketosis.

[PaulL]

But, just as a fyi, dogs enter ketosis quite easily with the right macros.

That’s not actually my understanding. Perhaps more easily than some other mammals, but not nearly as easily as human beings. It’s one of the reasons they can subsist on a diet that is not high in fat, whereas people are susceptible to rabbit starvation.

[MeganNZ]

I researched it quite extensively when my dog Grace was diagnosed with splenic haemangiosarcoma. Her macros were 82% fat, 17% protein, 1% net carbs. Had she not had cancer, and I was doing it for overall health reasons, her macros would have been 69% fat, 30% protein, 1% net carbs. How much food this translates to depends on the dog’s weight. For Grace, at 27 kg, it worked out to 255grams 80/20 ground beef, 54 grams butter and 100 grams of broccoli.

[PaulL]

Did you have a chance to test her ketone levels on those macros? It would be great to know how it worked. Though a low-carb diet by itself should help deprive cancer cells of their fuel, assuming Otto Warburg was correct. (I’ve heard some criticism of his hypothesis, but other cancer researchers seem to think he was on to something, at least for most cancers.)

[MeganNZ]

Yea, hers were higher than mine!
0.3-0.4

0.3 is what the folks at ketopet said was therapeutic for cancer, a wee bit higher for things like seizure control.

[MeganNZ]

The folks at KetoPet Sanctuary think a dog’s natural state was to be in ketosis quite a bit of the time, prior to us loading them up with carbs aka “commercial dog food” and the now common practice of overfeeding our dogs. I raw fed her most of her life but when the place I bought her food from closed down I switched her to a grain free kibble, believing the hype grain free was superior to standard kibble. Whilst it may be in some ways, it’s still horrendously high in carbs. I regret that decision deeply, but it probably had nothing to do with her getting the kind of cancer she got. And, unfortunately, there was zero chance a strict keto protocol was going to cure the kind of cancer she had. I was just hoping to buy a bit more time.

[Alecmcq]

I have also seen both of their blood work

What was their fasting insulin? Without understanding that, nobody has any idea whether or not they are heading towards T2D.

[Alecmcq]

with a veggie, who (does) do it for what she feels is ethical reasons, yet totally sane

Did she think that killing one animal (to eat meat) was worse than killing hundreds/thousands (to grow plants). Because that’s what happens.