Have we got it wrong about ratios of fat for weight loss?

#1

I have been ketoing since late last year and doing all the ‘right’ things - not calorie counting, fat to satiety, bacon on tap, eating until comfortably sated.
How much weight have I lost??
NONE!!!

So, I cut out dairy - made a small difference for a short while, but the two kilos that left me then came back with a couple of their friends.

Increased the amount of veggies I am eating, no nuts, good quality fatty proteins, and of course fat - lots of fat.
No weight lost.
In fact I am four kilos heavier than when I started late last year!!!

This is enough to drive a girl to drink and in fact I have replaced my evening meal with a glass of dry white wine to see if that helps.
It didnt.

So I have been searching through the interwebs for some answers.
I came across this graph from Virta Health.
I have a huge amount of respect for the folks at Virta Health - people like Sarah Hallberg, Steve Phinney, Jeff Volek, Peter Attia. These guys know what they are talking about and have the runs on the board with T2D reversal results.

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Link to Virta article with this graph https://blog.virtahealth.com/well-formulated-ketogenic-diet/

If this is correct, then those of us that are not losing weight on this WOE may be eating at the right hand side of the graph rather than the left hand side.
I understand the need to provide fat initially for an energy source, but I think I may have found the reason why I am not losing weight, and I wonder if this resonates with anyone else.

I do recall Eric Westman saying once that if your body is HF your diet only needs to be LC.

(Gabe “No Dogma, Only Science Please!” ) #2

Yep. This is exactly why I made this topic:

#3

HI @gabe,
probably need to move my topic over into yours.
I cant figure out how to do it, but reading your topic it is the same as mine :slight_smile:

(Gabe “No Dogma, Only Science Please!” ) #4

Yep I suggest copying and pasting your initial post here over into that one maybe?

(Katie the Quiche Scoffing Stick Ninja ) #5

If I understand this correctly, you are basically saying, for those who are fat adapted with fat to lose that their fat intake and calorie intake should be low?

#6

Hello @ava_ad0re,
I have copied and pasted this over into this thread

But essentially, that is my understanding of the info, particularly in regards to fat percentage. .

(Terence Dean) #7

You got it in one. Welcome to reality, blindly eating fat beyond what your body needs will not enable you to lose weight. How can we expect the body to metabolize its own fat reserves if we insist on feeding it plenty of fat, well beyond its daily requirements?

(Bunny) #8

Some people seem to be under the conception that with ketogenic diets, the more fat you eat, and the more fat you will burn:

THAT IS A MYTH

So don’t just turn up the coconut oil bottle like a diet cola and glug away.

If you eat too much fat, you will be burning off only the dietary fat you consume, not burning your own body fat , which is the ultimate goal for most people.

With the ketogenic diet, however, your purpose is to eat very low carbohydrate, moderate protein, and higher fat— NOT LOTS AND LOTS OF FAT.

What I’ve found is what works best is a diet of 0 sugar, unlimited vegetables, and between 20 and 40 grams of fat per meal.

3 to 4 oz. of protein per meal…

(TJ Borden) #9

The idea is (not that it works for everyone) to push fat in the beginning in order to help become fat adapted. Once someone becomes fat adapted and the body starts recognizing, and utilizing, stored fat for fuel, the amount of fat a person eats will drop naturally.

The graph represents what happens, not a target. Of someone starting out looks to that chart as a goal, they are simply going to be eating a calorie restricted diet, their metabolism will slow, and they’ll be spinning their tires.

To answer @gabe’s issue with pushing fat on newbies, it’s only to the extent of becoming fat adapted, and it’s to satiety, which doesn’t mean to excess .

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #10

I don’t remember anyone’s ever saying to eat fat past the point of satiety. My experience was that what felt like satiety initially was a lot of food, but when my satiety signaling really kicked in, my appetite dropped noticeably. I am of the opinion that those first couple of weeks of apparent overeating may have been needed to heal my body, before leptin signaling could even get a look in. But at no point did I ever eat past satiation, even when the quantity was large.

(Terence Dean) #11

I don’t interpret that graph like that at all. Its based on a woman who is 5’6" losing weight from 180lbs down to 140lbs. So its a graphical representation of a particular woman’s diet plan. The numbers themselves are meaningless because unless you are a woman with those specifications they will be wrong BUT they do show that in order for that woman to lose weight, there needs to be a fat deficit (shown by the gray area titled “Fat loss”). In the induction phase the fat deficit is about -1100kcal (2400-1300), the weight-loss phase shows a -650 kcal fat deficit, tapering off to the maintenance phase where intake equals expenditure.

My read is if you are this woman and you eat 1580 kcals of fat in the induction phase instead of 820 kcal you will not lose weight. I know this idea doesn’t suit Keto fans but this is exactly what is happening here. You do need to count calories if you need to lose weight. You can do it by guess work and waiting for a sign from heaven but good luck with that or use a calculator.

(Terence Dean) #12

Yes Paul that works for some people and you were lucky that it happened for you but I see a lot of people on this forum that don’t share the same experience. Telling them to eat more fat and that will solve their problem of weight-loss or lack of it, will not help them. Sure if satiety kicks in you naturally stop eating so much fat but people who have stalls need to check how much fat they are actually eating (assuming that they are fat adapted, and their carbs and proteins are correct). I’m not talking about a newbie who’s only been on the Keto WOE for a few weeks. After fat adaption occurs I would seriously consider checking fat macros especially if a stall occurs. What’s the harm in checking them?

(TJ Borden) #13

I’m not disputing the data on the graph. I’m saying it shouldn’t be looked at as a “plan” but as a “result”. Once fat adapted and pulling from reserves, you’re caloric intake will go down (with or without counting), and the more stored fat you have to pull from, the lower deficit you will naturally eat.

The danger comes from people ignoring hunger and trying to eat to a certain deficit. As has been covered countless times on this forum, there’s no way to track your daily expenditure. Combine that with the fact that nutrition labels are wildly inaccurate (even more so for the whole/natural foods that we generally eat on Keto) and even your intake is a ballpark guess.

#14

Well, as a 180 lb woman who is a bit keen to lose about 40 lbs it seemed to speak to me!
Take the caloric numbers out, though, and put in dietary percentages and it may well speak to others of a different weight or gender.
I have been trying this WOE for over 9 months now - really committed to it - but have gained weight.
My metabolic markers are vastly improved, which is the most important thing, but I still need to lose weight for ease of moving around, taking weight off my arthritic old knee, and making life easier for my horse.
It may not be the most important result of being keto, but it is important to me and has eluded me despite my best efforts.
This graph gives me a visual as to why that has not yet happened.

(Terence Dean) #15

We’re on the same page TJ but reading different paragraphs! :rofl:

We both agree that fat adaptation is desirable, and we should be pulling from our body’s fat reserves. We’re debating how we label the process. I don’t care whether we call it calorie counting, or satiety signal induced food reduction, its the same thing.

(Terence Dean) #16

I don’t agree, if you are fat adapted 99% will not feel hungry at all, eating to the right deficit needs to be done sensibly though.

Phinney advocates reducing fat intake for someone on a plateau, and to do so provided the deficit does not cause you to feel hungry. That’s his only caveat. If the deficit causes hunger you’ve gone too low. I would prefer to use a number that I get from an app, and see how I feel on that number. If I feel it is too tough, I’ll adjust it back. No one really wants to sabotage their own weight-loss so I’ll assume the person is sensible.

(Ron) #17

Don’t you guys get tired of this same old debate? It is obvious that different ways work for different people.
@tdean, I know you have lost your weight eating a deficit but I have lost 80lbs in six months and I seldom eat below my macro’s. Usually I am over. Maybe it should be more credited to the type of food more than the volume?:thinking:

(Christina) #18

JennyEllen-I agree with you but those who have had success with the more “standard” Keto approach will not. That’s ok, because you need to find what works for YOU. Keto is an idea, not a set formula. Every body is different and we need to tweak our process with our body until somethings feels right. The two things that have worked for me are: 1. Eat about the same % of grams of protein and fat. (not more than that - it actually makes me hungry for more fat!) and 2. Finish eating for the day by 4 pm. In other words, fast from 4 pm until morning, like 7 or 8.

Some will argue my method doesn’t work, is counter intuitive, etc etc. What works for each of us is the right way to keto! Just keep trying different approaches and you will find something that works for you!

(TJ Borden) #19

It’s called practice @mtncntrykid :rofl:

(Ron) #20

Ohhhh, I see, always learning on this forum! Love it. :joy::rofl: