Count calories?

(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #61

Almost all diet studies have shown that once the caloric restriction is eased, dieters not only regain the lost weight, but an additional stone or so.

This is why we are so adamant about promoting eating to satiety on a well-formulated ketogenic diet: the weight loss is sustainable, one is never hungry, and the weight stays off, because the body reaches a new “set point,” which it can maintain.

For me, the beauty of eating this way is that I never need to count calories. I just keep my carb intake as low as I can manage, and my body takes care of the rest.

#62

We should find out soon enough. I should get my medical results early next week. All I know so far is that my heart, heart rate & blood pressure are all ‘excellent’, according to my doctor. The bloods may suggest otherwise though, fingers crossed!

That’s after 14 weeks of keto with intentional calorie restriction (varying amounts) and 58lb lost.

(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #63

Actually, during starvation the body holds on to its fat store as long as possible, to the detriment of lean tissue. Granted, the fat eventually has to go, too, but not until quite late in the process. Cahll’s study, “Starvation in Man,” has some interesting observations.

(Carl Keller) #64

IMHO, the main reason keto is successful is that it does not slow metabolism while simply cutting calories does. Slowing your metabolism makes you feel like [spoiler]shit[/spoiler].

Fung can best explain why CICO eventually fails:

#65

Sorry Carl, I just don’t agree with him or you.
I am living proof that it works. I have just lost 58lb by restricting calories. I have never felt better (well, not for a long time anyway). Don’t tell me it doesn’t work, because it does.

I’m sure that your way isn’t the only way. And that people should be free to ask about CICO here, without being bombarded by non believers all the time.

(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #66

But if you have excess fat to lose, your body will set your appetite to a level such that you will not be getting all your energy needs from food intake alone, but also from the excess stored fat. Unless your hormonal mechanisms are damaged (it happens, though rarely), you can rely on your body to manage your appetite to achieve this. Most people on a ketogenic diet find that it is difficult to eat past the point of losing one’s appetite.

Be aware that, in its normal (high-fat, low-carb) state, the body is moving fat in and out of the adipose tissue all the time. The adipose tissue acts as a sort of energetic “flywheel” on the metabolic mechanism, keeping the metabolism moving when there is no food intake (during sleep and fasting, for example), and storing energy when food is coming in. It’s only in the presence of constant high insulin levels that fat gets trapped in the adipose and cannot be mobilized for metabolism.

(Carl Keller) #67

Nobody is disputing that. I’m pleased that your WOE is working for you but you are eating keto and IMHO the reduced calories is a byproduct, not the main focus. I eat at a caloric deficit almost every single day of keto but I don’t tell everyone that the reason I’m losing weight is because of calorie reduction. The focus is what I eat, not what I don’t eat.

I think what’s happening here now is healthy debate. Nobody seems to be preaching. It’s just people adding their thoughts on the subject. It only seems like an attack because you don’t agree. I have never once told you that you are wrong, contrary to what you have done.

(Justin Jordan) #68

Fun fact about The Biggest Loser Study: the people with the most metabolic slowdown regained the least weight.

(Jane) #69

Interesting!

So they followed up on their contestants and measured their metabolism in addition to how much weight the kept off?

(Justin Jordan) #70

Yep.

I think people tend to give this study a lot more importance than it probably merits, because of confirmation bias, but it’s interesting.

(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #71

Certainly in Hall’s case, lol!

(Robert C) #72

This seems like it could be mental given this was a competition.

If you are “hardcore” and damaged your metabolism more than others for the competition then you might continue to be “hardcore” and keep lowering calories to keep weight down.

I think that if the contestants had to eat the exact same food over the last 6 years then (pretty much by definition) the people with more damaged metabolisms would gain more.

So yeah, I wouldn’t put much “weight” in this study :grinning:

(Running from stupidity) #73

Err, I am :slight_smile:

It’s both n=1, and for three months. Both massive confounding factors. One set of test results will tell us about one case.

(Cindy) #74

It works in the SHORT TERM. That’s the problem. In some ways, it’s easier to LOSE weight than it is to keep it off. People need a long-term, sustainable way to lose weight. IF someone has the willpower to use CICO to an extreme (vs small adjustments to lose weight slowly), then the weight is lost, the restrictions are let go, and the weight just goes climbing up again.

(Justin Jordan) #75

There’s a lot of stuff there that makes it not a thing I would use to generalize:

  • Massive calorie deficit
  • Massive exercise
  • People who were pretty obese to begin with
  • 14 people

And indeed, one of the 14 actually kept the weight off entirely, which statistically is above average result, but only because the sample size is small.

We don’t know what they’ve continued to do, other than they’re said to have had good compliance. That’s not quite the same as saying their metabolic slowdown is irreversible.

And finally, they’re still at around 1900 calories a day of BMR (not mentioned in the abstract, but elsewhere) - which is not really a super low level.

What the study really shows, to the extent a small study about extremes shows anything, is that the recommend diet is probably bad mojo. The whole body of studies about actual metabolic slowdown (as opposed to just burning less calories because you weight less) is a lot more ambiguous, although the difficulty of nutrition studies should always be considered.

(Robert C) #76

@cw2001
YES - per Dr. Fung - all diets work but then all diets fail.
Must focus on hormones instead of calories for lasting change.

(Running from stupidity) #77

Exactly. As a few of us have now said in varying ways. And I’m out of likes, again, so you get this comment :slight_smile:

:metal::metal::metal::metal::metal::metal:

(Carl Keller) #78

Umm, you chopped half of what I was quoting. I was referring to this
“I have just lost 58lb by restricting calories”

My bad. My reference was vague at best. :stuck_out_tongue:

(Running from stupidity) #79

Too many words, I wasn’t quoting all of them. Short and punchy is what I wanted :slight_smile:

(And I was happy it didn’t change context, so I did it :wink:

#80

You are kidding me?

So you have been giving opposing posts to my CICO belief, and you yourself use CICO to lose weight?
I tell you what Carl, keep doing what your doing, but increase calories to 3 times what they are right now. See if you still lose weight.

This is getting ridiculous.