Could weight gain on keto or carni be due to bone density improving?

#21

I said that in general and for a big amount. Like gaining 20-40lbs on carnivore (I heard about such a case and it made sense as there was overeating), that’s not bone for sure :wink:

Your weight barely changed, I mean, most people have that little changes without any apparent reason. Even if it’s significant compared to your low weight.
I don’t know how but the body surely can put away 3 kg somehow, even without a visible change in water retention or some very believable explanation… I don’t think you can just gain 3kg in bone mass quickly.

#22

yea I gained about 10 lbs on carnivore when I started. Pretty darn fast also. Reason for me was I came from a restricted and controlled kcal very low carb menu. The minute I ‘ate all the zc food’ I wanted and ‘needed’ for my body it put on weight fast. Drove me insane and I freaked but all the zc veterans said don’t worry, it will come off…and it did with me still eating all the meat I wanted in my day.

When one is very controlling of their menu and portion sizes and control of what they do eat in a day and use restriction, when one goes carnivore eating big ol’ hunks of fatty meats, one can easily put on some lbs. But those lbs dropped a bit after fast also and that is what prompted me to hold carnivore, cause when that weight gain hit I freaked for sure LOL

So kinda it is ‘who are you’ coming into carnivore will be maybe if you are one to lose weight quicker or one to gain weight.
So if ya read this from Dr Stock who is carnivore it kinda explains about who are we coming into zc and how it can swing as different experiences for each of us.
Are you John or Sally? losing weight and how it might happen

#23

Hi Fangs, I read your John and Sally post, it was interesting. I associated myself more with Sally than John for sure, except I didn’t feel ravenous when I went from keto to carnivore, I was eating the same amount of meat as on keto, and still am now, but with a few plants in my WOE too.

I do think for someone without lipoedema, with normal fat, that initial weight gain that happens on carnivore (due to where the person was before starting carni, and the body prioritising healing before weightloss) shouldn’t deter people from trying, if the carnivore WOE improves other symptoms, of an autoimmune disease, for example. As that initial fat put on can be lost again. For them. I thought it was a great post anyway, Fangs. Food for thought.

#24

agree with your post. but also it isn’t just other symptoms in that that being over weight is a symptom of an unhealthy body system. I believe firmly it is an auto immune triggered issue also for lipodema factors, in that it could also be a genetic disposition too so it borders on alot of factors WHY we get what we do get ya know on some med issues? Everything in our body and how it treats us on what we deal with has a beginning, as in inflammation/auto triggered immune issues right down to genetics and every day life of meds we are on and more. The healthier we eat, elmininate foods that ‘could work against’ us and heading into a zc way of lifestyle can show us alot of things about ourselves, but it never happens overnight for any of us :slight_smile: wish it did but it never will LOL

you were a more lucky ‘stable’ person than me. I fought all changes to my eating. I fought in my low carb days, atkin days, my journey down the carb ladder. I fought like hell to keep all my fav ol’ foods and even if not hungry, or no real issues with satiaty and more, I MIND craved and grieved and was pizzed off life was unfair I couldn’t eat all the junk I did and ‘be more healthy’. For me it was a massive mind f to change over and transition. Only thing I could do thru the years was ‘accept’ where ‘I had to be’ for me being my best. I tell ya that took alot of time for me to stop pretending, denying and excusing it all. Acceptance of me on my plan was key, but I finally got there. I ‘cured’ alot of ‘brain dieting’ issues for myself in the 6 yrs I have been zc but I know one thing, it is an active daily focus still for me, yet way easier :slight_smile:

so much we all face in big changes. So different also on each of us.

(KM) #25

Hmm. How about, water is also heavier than fat. Denser. So if you’re losing fat and replacing it with water, you would have the same weight with less volume. That water might also be stored in different places, leading to the appearance of recomposition.

#26

Hi Fangs, just like your John and Sally post, where you wrote we’re all different falling somewhere perhaps right where those two people were, or somewhere inbetween, it’s all so individual. It could well be lipoedema is an autoimmune disease, and I am pretty sure my roseaca is an autoimmune issue. The same with my Reynolds. I don’t consider myself a healthy person, even though I eat very healthy. As I deal with daily fatigue, inflammation that comes and goes, brain fog, and that I suppose won’t change unless I go off my medication. It isn’t terrible, I have to remind myself, I am very grateful for the health I do have (even if it could be better) and my improved mobility, but that daily fatigue is something I’m not entirely sure would go away. My GP discouraged me from putting on weight, that was her main advice with regards to my lipoedema, don’t put on any weight, and keep it in check. On a ketogenic WOE I can do that, but my natural inclination was to eat carnivore foods, so that’s my body fighting with my head. My head said, I feel really good eating these foods, I am losing my brainfog. My body said, but I am constipated, I have water retention and I’ve been putting on weight, and it was chosing between these two, combined with listening to the current science regarding lipoedema, that led me back to keto.

#27

I SO feel your waiver in it all. Which way to turn? Which way is best? Which way might give us tons more health and healing vs. being a train wreck of a ‘try’ that sets us back?

All valid and confusing issues some must face, not a doubt about that!

Only thru commitment to a new eating plan and ‘waiting for changes’ to come at us is the only way forward but if we expect to see massive changes overnight or even like, 6 months into a plan we commit, do we fail cause we can’t just keep the faith in that plan to heal us maybe with it being a year or more? I know I fought that mental issue with my plan choices also.

OK so never2late how much weight do you kinda need to lose to be more healthy in your mind? We all got that number. What is your goal and change for health now for you as it stands?

#28

Hi Fangs, it’s not losing weight on the scale per se. I am 52kg, 5.2. So I’m not looking for a certain amount of pounds to lose. The problem with my lipoedema is my weight is disproportionately distributed, it’s all in my lower half, my top half is thin. The weight is in odd places, on and around my knees, on the calves, and I bruise easily because of the lipoedema, but if you looked at me in a dress, say, you wouldn’t see the condition lipoedema at all. So it’s not really about weight loss, but I can’t afford to gain any weight either. I had decided to give the ketogenic WOE a year to see if there would be any improvement to the lipoedema, so I suppose I was more after body recomposition, and sure, I’m happy for that to take it’s time, I just can’t afford to gain weight as it would aggravate the lipoedema.

#29

I doubt that the weight gain was due to an increase of bone density. Bones make up approx. 15% of total body weight. On a 200lbs person that would be 30lbs. A 10% increase in bone weight would only be 3 pounds. Not sure what the relationship between bone mass and bone weight is. Depending on the type of DEXA, you could probably figure this out pretty quickly.

#30

@never2late, ok then I think you are dealing with this??

https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/lipedema-stages

I think alot if genetics and hormones and more. While it can be auto immune trigger thru our eating I never would think with the info out there on it ‘being a real deal medical triggered physical issue’ that ‘just changing our eating’ will ever relieve or correct this issue also.

seems genetics come more into play for ‘some one deemed pear shape’ issues maybe? I mean one can google how to ‘cure, fix, correct’ but I think more is an internal body genetic issue that one is fighting against.

Do you feel this may be you at this point?

NOW THIS IS all just chat to kinda suspect our you in my mind :slight_smile: and I am not ever sure on ‘you’ at all ya know so it is just chat to whittle down issues to maybe help ya find a path forward better…this is an issue I am not experiencing etc so I am winging alot of our chat here LOL

(Megan) #31

Hi @never2late, it sounds like you are well on your way to discovering what works best for you and your body, and that is fantastic!

#32

I think, in retrospect, it was water. That I began to retain water due to my lymphatics becoming clogged on carnivore. As when I reinstated the foods I had started out with on keto, the vegetables, berries and nuts, my lymphatics improved, swelling went down and I began releasing water again, I also lost the 2-3 kg I gained. Those kilos may have just been normal fluctuation and nothing to do with it, but I did petceive the carnivore WOE was not as good for my lymphatics as keto was. Then I incidentally read those plants I had been eating at the start of my keto journey are those known to benefit lymph, which makes sense.

(Bob M) #33

Totally agree here, if you’re talking muscle gains. Unless you are young, male, with good genetics to gain muscle, and lifting a lot, your muscle mass gains will be slow. Not sure about bone mass, but I assume the same.

The best test for all of this is a DEXA scan which is, unfortunately, both hard to find and expensive in most areas of the country.

As for @robintemplin’s recomposition question, I do think it’s possible to have recomposition without exercising. I’ve seen a few studies where people eating keto gain muscle while losing fat, even if they don’t exercise. A DEXA scan might help there, as you’d get some idea where fat free mass is going/coming.

#34

I’m a very odd case. In a dress you’d never see me as a pear shape at all, I look more up and down, straight. The lady who examined me at the lymphedema clinic commented as much. And also said I was the slimmest lipoedema lady she had ever met. But she could still see I had lipoedema, though they were early changes she said. And at least, keto gives me hope that if it can’t cure the lipoedema, it can at least keep it like this, at this very early stage. But lipoedema is more than just a fat disorder, the word means fluid in the fat, and it’s a loose connective tissue disorder, I have hopes a ketogenic WOE can also address this issue, and improve not just the lymphatics, but the connective tissues. Because I had breast cancer I don’t think it would be a good idea for me to start taking collagen, to improve the tissues that way. But apparently, cowskin and pigskin contains collagen, perhaps it would be considered safe to get my collagen naturally from foods. It’s a frustrating issue, but I am still grateful for my improved mobility, as before I started keto, my legs ached, I had a lot of lipoedema tenderness, unsightly bruises (they’re now gone) and my hip tended to freeze up on me. So I’m grateful for all those improvements and benefits.

#35

Thanks Megan, I am suspecting the last inflammatory component is dairy, my beloved heavy whipping cream and cows cheese, I’m totally addicted to both. But I plan to replace it all with just a small amount daily of raw milk. I replaced my cows cheese with goats cheese, and discovered I tolerated it better, and was much more satiated by it, just a tiny bit would do. I’d eat much more of the cows cheese. So it’ll be interesting to see if just a small amount of raw milk would do. Apparently if you’re intolerant to a certain food you also tend to be addicted to it. Or I think it was something along those lines I read. Yes, it’s a journey where N=1. We always have to do what’s right for US.

#36

So happy thru your tough journey you are improving and finding your way! I give you a massive high 5 on working thru what it will take for you!!

Roads might not be easy for many of us but we do best we can thru it all as a strong willed, strong character person will do for themselves, you fit this bill for sure to me :slight_smile:

Yea when I watched 600lb life tv show I learned about about lymphedema and what it entails but key being, being that so overweight while it went down some thru diet/inflammation gone and water issues being corrected and more, in the end only surgery would ever handle those people’s issues ya know. I think at some point would ‘a surgical intervention’ come into play for you? I know when I googled it mostly it said it was not a ‘real option’ as in ‘cure’ type but it also ‘took fat cells and smoothed’ out areas that are maybe not under our total control ever thru our eating changes?

again, just chat on it :slight_smile: :slight_smile: I know surgery option of sucking out the offenders could lead to better? but where that leads after that longer term etc I don’t have a clue which is why I am saying, just off the cuff chat on it to you.

#37

Hi Fangs, it can certainly lead to terrible things, but usually then, it has happened through some poor diet choices (yo-yoing) and subsequent obesity where the normal fat came off, but the lipoedema fat would worsen each time. And of course, if that leads to the lymphatics failing resulting in the condition lipo-lymphedema, then you’re looking at those extreme cases. Luckily my weight has always been stabile, apart from some weight gain in my two pregnancies. That weight came off each time, within 6-12 months. But some fat stuck around, on and around my knees, on my calves, causing cuffs (though not very obvious) around my ankles. And that fat is still there. I’ve been listening to a few interviews now with Siobhan Huggins and she has by far it worse than me, it appears she has lipoedema over her whole body more as opposed to just the legs, but she has said although a ketogenic WOE hasn’t reversed her lipoedema, it has stopped it in its progress, and that’s still significant. As to surgery, I could never afford that privately and through the NHS is not an option. I’ve read about ladies far worse affected than me, begging for surgeries to address their issues, and being declined. It is an incredibly expensive procedure, even for those at early stages. For those at more advanced stages, the cost of surgery would be astronomical.

However, there is some science that shows a ketogenic WOE could be equally as efficient a treatment for lipoedema as surgery (without the risks). I can understand the thinking behind restricting surgeries. If people who were eating poorly, were obese with no handle on their WOE got such a surgery, the lipoedema could very well come back, if they just went back to that same way of eating and living. I do believe if the surgery was done on someone in the early stage, with no complication like lipo-lymphedema, and on a ketogenic WOE, then there is a good chance the surgery would be successful and lipoedema would stay gone, but much more research is needed. What is terrible is the situation a lot of ladies find themselves in having not known about their lipoedema condition, and simultaneously battled obesity, and perhaps eaten emotionally, and finding themselves stuck in their lipo-lymphedema bodies as a result, so knowledge and increasing awareness is what is needed. When people are armed with knowledge, they tend to make better choices.

#38

Lucky who have that level of awareness. It could have been something entirely different, but you seemed to have figured out how to resolve it.

#39

Nope, that’s it. More muscle, less fat, scale doesn’t move. 10lbs a year is around it’s speed, which is why people intentionally going for that usually go with a little more drastic. But 10lbs of muscle in a year, other than somebody new to lifting is a lot of gain, people lifting have a hard time doing that without help.