Chia seeds

[BeStill]

That’s super interesting to me, I do have MTHFR, maybe why me and Chia seeds don’t mesh

[atomicspacebunny]

oxalates are naturally occurring in plants. It’s unclear how many we make endogenously, but it is well established that foods high in oxalates can cause a buildup in the body. It is absolutely not the case that a leaky gut causes us to make them. They penetrate the gut, which is a Potential cause of the leak he got. They bind with minerals in the body and wreak havoc.

I would like to see the research on this?

[EZB]

There were a ton of discussions on this on the HPO podcasts recently

[atomicspacebunny]

Actual Research papers not podcasts?

[EZB]

They had the researchers on it. You can deny oxalates are bad. You can say they are only bad for some people. But there is no place at all that says we create them in our bodies because we we have leaky gut syndrome. We know oxalates are in plants. We know they become soluble: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22642066. We believe some people can deal with them, but others cannot. We think that gut microbiome may be part of why some can deal with them, but the oxalates themselves still come from the food: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/30903295. Not many studies are done because it doesn’t fit the plant-friendly narrative.

[atomicspacebunny]

From the research you just cited and the previous research I presented in another post!

”…RECENT FINDINGS: Initially, Oxalobacter formigenes (OF) was pursued as the main link between GMB and USD given its ability to degrade oxalate in the gut. However, the latest studies consistently suggest that the entire GMB is much more likely to be involved in handling oxalate absorption and other risk factors for urinary stone formation, rather than just a few microbiota. …” …More

You can deny oxalates are bad. You can say they are only bad for some people.

We “believe” some people can deal with them, but others cannot. We think that gut microbiome may be part of why some can deal with them, but the oxalates themselves still come from the food:

“Belief” and “denying” is a process of elimination, sometimes people want to “believe” what somebody else is saying without really reading anything and that then invokes unfounded hysteria with the use of “We” (who is we?).

[EZB]

Yes, but note how none of them have anything like your assertion that because of a leaky gut, the body CREATES the oxalates.

[atomicspacebunny]

Lol…it is not my mere “assertion.”

Do you actually read anything?

I would not run down the street hysterically wiggling my arms around yelling the “sky is falling” without actually reading and understanding what I am reading before I believe that somebody is just randomly believing mere “assertions?”

[EZB]

Where are your citations on studies showing the body creates oxalates because of leaky gut

[atomicspacebunny]

Right here:

From the research you just cited and the previous research I presented in another post!

”…While there are some rare, genetic causes for having high oxalates, the vast majority of people with oxalate problems cannot blame it on their genes. As you will soon learn, the main reason oxalates become a problem is that they leak in through a dysfuctional gut. Since most Americans have a leaky gut of some kind, more and more people are developing oxalate-related issues. And the worst part is that those who have an oxalate problem likely have no idea. Oxalates aren’t something most doctors are aware of and we don’t hear much about them in the media or casual conversations. But if you ask a person who has just had to deal with a painful kidney stone, they will tell you just how big of a problem oxalates can be! …” …More

Food avoidance hysteria is more anecdotal and is more based on unfounded fear than reality:

1. We have the PUFA fear mongering who do not realize eating more fish or getting more organic Omega 3’s will cancel out that problem?

2. And then we have the Lectin fear mongering, who do not realize Lectins are in everything we eat and you would starve to death trying to avoid them?

3. And then we have oxalate hysteria fear mongering who refuse to eat enough calcium and citric acid to resolve that problem…

…and the beat goes on…lol

There is big difference between organic and inorganic substances? (man made or manipulated; re-engineered e.g. ground soil mineral depletion, GMO’s, chemical fertilizers, livestock feed, HFCS, pesticides, herbicides, fungicides, hexanes in soy processing and used in food and livestock feed, partially and fully hydrogenated animal fats and vegetable oils…etc.)

[NinMD]

This is very interesting and useful. You are an encyclopedia of knowledge. We are so lucky to have you on this forum.

[EZB]

Notice that the argument made is still that the oxalates come from food. It never mentions that leaky gut causes the body to MAKE them

[atomicspacebunny]

Hmmm! Maybe some high school refresh courses would help with reading abilities and comprehension skills?

Now that we established reading is fundamental!

Maybe if you already have a leaky gut, that may be a contributing factor?

Also notice that I realize oxalates are already in the food we eat!

[EZB]

The citations don’t say that the body creates oxalates because of leaky gut. It says the leaky gut let’s them in.

[MommyJill2005]

To keep it simple I add 1 tsp chia seeds in a bottle of water and drink it. Within about 8 to 10 hours it moves things along but not in a bad explosive way. I just started this and it helps!

[SporkyDonkey]

A pre-existing leaky gut is why you form oxalates, oxalates are not the cause of a leaky gut.

This is the quote of contention. The oxalates exist regardless of the gut. It does not “form” them. They can pass whole through a leaky gut, and aslo cause the gut to become leaky.

[atomicspacebunny]

The citations don’t say that the body creates oxalates because of leaky gut. It says the leaky gut let’s them in.

Then I would ask myself what causes a leaky gut and why would I have leaky gut to begin with and how do I repair a leaky gut? I personally would not want my health to be so fragile that I could not handle something as common as oxalates?

[atomicspacebunny]

They can pass whole through a leaky gut, and aslo cause the gut to become leaky.

Research?

Then you may be missing some pretty important gut bacteria Oxalobacter formigenes (OF)? The broad-spectrum quinolone antibiotics kill O. formigenes? If that is indeed the case?

The human body as well as plants and animals already contain oxalates naturally, it is not something you can avoid and your body should be capable of breaking it down naturally if you are eating oxalates, if that need be the case and if not then you need to have more calcium and citric acid in your diet.

[atomicspacebunny]

This is the quote of contention. The oxalates exist regardless of the gut. It does not “form” them.

Just to clarify my contentiousness:

1. The gut itself does not “form” oxalates (a no brainer)…

2. Eating oxalates does allow the body to synthesize them into crystals through complex biological processes which are resolved or dissolved by adequate calcium and citric acid intake in the diet.

3. The body can indeed “form” oxalates even if you don’t eat them through a process called Vitamin C and hydroxyproline from eating animal collagen and gelatin:

”…Increased hydroxyproline levels in the urine and/or serum are normally associated with degradation of connective tissue. Vitamin C deficiency decreases the conversion of proline to hydroxyproline, which leads to reduced collagen stability. …” …More

image link: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0022534701623632

If you get rips and tears in your arterial walls this[1] is why!

Footnotes:

[1] …not enough calcium or citric acid (not the same as vitamin C) in the diet…

[Jeramy_Koval]

FWIW, I sometimes consume a tbsp or 2 of chia seeds and wash them down with water. Never have an issue with my stomach and after a few hours it helps move things along.

I do agree with others that have suggested more water and salt. For me, it was finding the right balance.