Carb loading before surgery?

(KM) #22

:laughing:

I was trying to unravel that and came to the exact same conclusion. I don’t understand how consuming sugar could lead to lowered insulin resistance, or reduce the chance of hyperglycemia, surgery or no surgery. Very counterintuitive if it’s true.

(Geoffrey) #23

Key word there. So they only surmise.

#24

You may not feel mental stress, but the body does experience the surgical stress. It is thought that having carbs helps manage the recovery. There are studies that do show this. Very comon. I would not worry about one bit. Your body will thank you after.

(Robin) #25

There are always books within reach. Already packed. :slightly_smiling_face:

(Bob M) #26

I understood these parts: “Fasting depletes glycogen stores”; and “Hyperglycaemia is associated with more post-operative complications.” After that, nothing made sense. Wouldn’t you NOT want to eat carbs to avoid hyperglycaemia?

(KM) #27

I think I have an idea, although it’s not actually clear from that gibberish. They’re not actually trying to carb / glycogen load. They’re trying to INSULIN load (by triggering [excess] insulin production with a rush of sugar), to mitigate the effects of surgical stress, which can release stress hormones or a cytokine storm, which all raise blood sugar. Post operative insulin would do the same thing, it’s just more expensive and labor intensive, and perhaps trickier to get the dose right. The body will release the correct amount of stored insulin “for free” if it has any.

If this is true, then pre-loading insulin might be even more effective for keto/carni vores, as we don’t have much insulin on hand. They just need to stop telling hospitals to add insult to injury with high carb meals and D5W after surgery.

(Bob M) #28

That might be it. I was thinking more along the first phase of insulin secretion, which is (according to Ben Bikman) based on what you ate before, at least 1-2 or so times before. So, if you eat high carb before you have surgery, you’ve “primed” that response so when you eat high carb after surgery, you’ll get this first phase release of insulin, which will lower the glycemic response. Meanwhile, if you just fasted for a while, you’d not “prime” that response, so you’d get a higher glycemic response when you did eat high carb after the surgery.

None of this has much to do with “insulin resistance”, though, at least not in the way I think of “insulin resistance”. And if your goal is to avoid a high glycemic response after surgery, don’t eat carbs. Eat meat and maybe some vegetables.

(KM) #30

No, that’s the point, surgery itself results in hyperglycemia, having nothing to do with food intake.

So, you’re also insulin-primed to manage that glucose spike which, I think, is the operative action here; I’m not sure it has a thing to do with insulin resistance or glycogen stores etc.

(Megan) #31

But wouldn’t non-diabetic relatively healthy people who typically eat high carb just make more insulin in response to the hyperglycaemia caused by the surgical stress?

I’m having major abdominal surgery in about 3 weeks; the op will take about 8 hours. I’ll ask one of my surgeons what he thinks about pre-op carb loading because my body sure as heck won’t know what to do initially in response to hyperglycaemia.

Also, you people are way too health conscious. No one has suggested a couple of pre-op chocolate binges as a way of ingesting the evil carbs!!! :innocent:

(Jane) #32

I had total knee replacement 2 years ago and emergency gallbladder surgery last year.

No carb loading for the knee surgery and did just fine.

I hadn’t been able to eat much for 2 days prior to showing up in the emergency room and my potassium was low so they put my surgery off another day while they gave me supplements through my IV. By the time I actually had the surgery I was almost 3 days fasted so no carb-loading for sure! Did fine.

Good luck with your suegery Robin and wishing you a speedy recovery :heart_eyes:

(Edith) #33

Checking in. I hope you are doing well. :smiling_face_with_three_hearts:

(Bob M) #34

I’ve read the study again, and maybe what you’re saying is true? Here are the only times they discuss this:

Nutritional supplements pre-operatively are safe and alter the immune and catabolic response to surgery, enhancing post-operative recovery.1–4

Fasting depletes glycogen stores, increasing the demand for amino acids. The endocrine response of insulin resistance to fasting is central to the catabolic surgical response, resulting in reduced insulin stimulated glucose uptake in skeletal muscle and adipose tissue, increased glucose release and hyperglycaemia. Hyperglycaemia is associated with more post-operative complications.

CHO drinks pre-empt catabolic responses to surgery.

To me, “catabolic responses to surgery” takes place after surgery. I think they needed a paragraph to explain this part. They just assume you know what “catabolic response to surgery” is. Because I find stuff like this:

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image.png901×321 36.8 KB

Let’s ignore “cells become resistant to the reduced amount of insulin secreted” since this makes no sense to me. But if what they are saying is that post-surgery, you produce less insulin than you need to produce, and drinking carbs beforehand means you’ll produce more insulin, then maybe that’s correct?

But I still fail to see how taking in a few grams of carbs, even 100g, before surgery yields that much of a result. True, the next time you eat, you’ll get more insulin, but really only that time or the next. Or does your pancreas suddenly become permanently primed?

I’m giving up. Unless I want to spend multiple hours trying to decipher what happens during and after surgery, I won’t be able to figure out what they’re saying.

(KM) #35

Very true. The basis of my theory that they’re attempting to mitigate this catabolic response with insulin priming came from this AI definition:

“The catabolic response is a metabolic response to surgical stress that can have both beneficial and detrimental effects. The response can include: Hyperglycemia, Protein loss, Insulin resistance, Muscle weakness, and Increased blood glucose.”

In any event I agree, this discussion could go on for decades, and I just hope Robin’s doing well and came through her surgery with flying colors.

(Robin) #36

Thanks for checking on me. They ended up removing 15 inches of my lower colon. Took 3 hours of surgery. I’m staying another night to get past the pain.
Oxycodone. I can see why people get hooked!

(Joey) #37

Wonderful to know you’re on the other side of this surgery. Congratulations on getting here - with best wishes for a s-p-e-e-d-y recovery! :vulcan_salute:

#38

Robin,
Next month, I am doing a colonoscopy. Every year I do one whereas my Mother procedure from colon cancer. This is what I do * nope…I am not giving medical advice. I am 63 & thus far, have out lived my Mother’s diagnosis age. Five days before the procedure, I fast & only drink LMNT & ABSOLUTELY :100: no food. Typically, I am “cleaned out” & only have to drink a half a gallon :upside_down_face: of that disgusting solution :sweat_smile: called GaviLyte-G. I do not use the Lemon flavor pack they provide with the gallon jug but use sugar free lemon lime Gatorade :yum: :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye: Hope this note finds you well! Best wishes! Geri

(Robin) #39

I am all too familiar with colonoscopies too. I go many days with just fluids before I even begin that actual “prep”.

(Geoffrey) #40

So glad to hear from you Robin. Praying for a speedy recovery.

(Megan) #41

Great to hear you’re through the surgery and doing well Robin @robintemplin.

#42

Man if there’s one thing this thread makes clear the medical community needs to start representing us and looking at things from a low carb/carnivore system perspective too. Glad your doing well Robin :heart: