Can we please stop repeating the “You have to eat at a deficit to lose weight on KETO” lie?

#407

Agree wholeheartedly!

(PJ) #408

Naw. Because the primary issue with our food supply is that after a certain amount of damage in the body, it does all kinds of things that drive people to eat. It reduces satiation in at least a couple ways, it drives hunger in at least a few ways, it dispenses with food too harshly (resulted in low blood sugar) that then drives the body to need energy which drives not just eating but sugar/starch cravings and rapid/urgent-eating, some of the most primary cultural foods are addictive and have opioid and craving effects – in short, it’s not just the perfect storm, it’s a Cat 4 sucker, which could only raise to Cat 5 level if we actually added cocaine to it or something.

Most people DO eat to satiation. What that amounts to is extremely screwed up in modern food culture though. Small children do better solely because they haven’t had a sufficient dose of crappy food supply to wreak sufficient damage – yet. The number of obese 8 year olds is vastly higher than it used to be.

The only time I have ever over-eaten on purpose is when I felt like I was getting something special I almost never did and the supply was limited, or a couple times after metaphysical experiences that created such panic and cognitive dissonance that overstuffing was the intuitive way to re-ground and re-focus. I know they say some people do this for emotional reasons but I suspect aside from the first example, physiology is always behind that. Whether it’s association with treat/holiday times as a kid or simply the brain effects of a certain dosage. Even the extension that causes misery from overeating in gut-bloat has a variety of chemical effects internally.

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #409

Actually, the more I ponder this, the more I am inclined to divide people into those who consider their bodies things to be mortified and manipulated, things on which one’s will is to be imposed, and those who wish to regain or retain their health by eating in a healthful, holistic way that involves working in harmony with their bodies. At any rate, these appear to be the two underlying attitudes that motivate many of our discussions here on these forums. I suspect they are the explanation for many of the impasses reached in those discussions, as well.

Your assertion that it is possible to overeat by ignoring hormonal signals ignores the published research on overfeeding, in which the study participants found it extremely difficult to eat a significant amount of food above their satiety levels. It appears that ignoring either hunger or satiety brings with it unpleasant consequences.

It also appears that you are overlooking the published research showing that, while daily intake and expenditure are often at variance, people on an ad libitum diet (i.e., eating to satiety) somehow end up matching their intake and expenditure surprisingly accurately over any given seven- or eight-day period. My own N = 1 shows that, while my appetite varies considerably from day to day (and therefore my intake varies accordingly), my weight has consistently fluctuated within the same 4.5-kilo (10-lb.) range for the past 23 months. (Interestingly, my body composition has changed noticeably over that period of stable weight.)

Of course we are. That goes without saying. The point is that for us, the process is automatic, not one imposed on our bodies.

Of course, the “window” has to be a highly flexible one. Over time (that is, not necessarily day by day), if I spend a few weeks working hard at my desk, the caloric requirements of my hard-working brain get automatically factored in. If I spend a few weeks chopping and stacking wood, the caloric requirements of my hard-working muscles get automatically factored in. And if I catch a fever that prevents me from either thinking or exerting my muscles, well, the lowered caloric requirement of that lack of any kind of physical or mental activity also gets automatically factored in.

You are confusing definitions. A calorie is defined as the amount of heat required to raise the temperature of one gram of water by one degree Celsius (at one atmosphere of pressure). However, what we call a “calorie” in the context of food quantities is actually a kilo-calorie, and 4000 kcals is indeed 4,000,000 (four million) standard calories. People used to attempt to keep this in mind by writing “kcal” and capitalising “Calorie,” but it appears that the effort of hitting the shift key or typing one extra letter is too much for the vast majority of us. It might help to remember that a healthy adult human being generally expends somewhere in the neighborhood of 2800 kcals = 2.8 million cals a day.

No, not on the current dietary guidelines. The whole problem is that the excessive amount of carbohydrate we are advised to eat drives up insulin and interferes with the appetite hormones. As a carb burner, I was perfectly capable of being hungry even when I had just filled my stomach to the point where “just wan more waffer-theen meent” would have literally caused my stomach to burst. Yes, I would eat that close to causing myself acute harm. Practically every day. It was not fun, but I was hungry. (Richard is producing a book on this topic, which should be out soon, if not already.)

It is only on keto that I find that I lose interest in food at a point when (I estimate) my stomach is (probably) no more than half-full. Plenty of room for more food, but no desire for it.

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #410

You know, if anyone wants a good visual reference for the effects of the current American dietary guidelines, search for unclothed or shirtless people from the period 1940-1970. Notice how many of the men are so skinny that their ribs show, and how many of the women have slender but well-muscled arms and legs.

Then do the same thing for say, the period 1980-2010. Notice how even the fittest men have a layer of sub-cutaneous fat, and how the women are all stocky and flabby.

It’s a pretty dramatic comparison. :bacon::bacon:

(Jane) #411

Or look at old historical pictures of groups of people that were not going through any hardships like a famine. All thin and normal sized with only a few exceptions.

It was only the very rich who became fat and they had access to sugar.

#412

I could easily eat sausage after sausage after sausage after …

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #413

I think we disagree on the universal efficacy of ‘eat to satiety’. If it works, fine, go for it. But if it doesn’t, what are the alternatives? I don’t have strong hunger and satiety signals. I did when I ate SAD, but not on keto. I think my choice to eat to a caloric total that maintains my weight +/- a couple of pounds for multiple years works just fine for me. That does not mean I ignore science. I’m a very observant person and I like to measure and record data. But I have to apply the science to me, whether or not I’m an outlier, singleton or just plain oddball.

(Bunny) #414

Not sure which one I would be but I sometimes eat an entire large pizza by myself and I’m still burning ketones the next day, it’s almost scary.

(Scott) #415

When I was a carb burner I was always hungry and often hangry. Now I look up and realize it is time to eat. I never snack anymore and never go back for seconds at dinner. Something has definitely changed in my satiety and hunger signaling.

(traci simpson) #416

Mercy! I still get night sweats but mine is hormonal. It’s been in the 50’, 60 in VA and I have windows open, ceiling fan on and a floor fan on and I still get hot! LOL

(traci simpson) #417

I find that some days, I just want more with my dinner and some days I’m good. I can’t figure out why or what triggers it. I do know when I eat carbs or slip up and have brownies : ( or something bad, I have a tendency to eat more and want more carbs.

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #418

Me the same. Since my weight is stable, I don’t worry about fluctuations in appetite. I just eat to satisfy my hunger, figuring that it evens out over time (one study I read found that daily intake and expenditure don’t usually match very well, but that over any given seven- or eight-day period, they match almost precisely).

And boy, do I know what you mean about eating carbohydrate increasing the cravings for carbohydrate!

(Daniel) #419

do you have beer with the pizza?

(Bunny) #420

No, usually a nice sugary orange crush soda pop on the rocks…lol

(Susan) #421

I can totallllly relate to this, Traci…hormones are a pain!! I had a dear elderly lady that I called Auntie (was one of my mom’s best friends, and passed away at 94, and she told me at that age she was still having hot flashes, and the dear was very petite and tiny (under 4 feet and slim, so this is scary thinking that it will be a life long thing, grrr!!).

(traci simpson) #422

UGH!!! :hot_face:

(Jane) #423

Amazing. What is your blood ketone level the day after eating a large pizza and sugary orange soda?

(Bunny) #424

Around 0.4 that’s pretty good for such a carby meal?

(Jane) #425

Not bad.

#426

I get no cravings from eating more micronutrient-rich root veg carbs or green apple carbs as a part of a well balanced meal with eggs or cheese and nut butter that further slow the carb journey.

But simpler carbs and esp straight sugar is very different - it goes straight to the blood real fast with no brakes, esp if your main meal was done 20-30 minutes previous and the stomach has cleared, and/or you’ve had wine w/ the meal.

Once I had decadent sugary flan pudding for a friend’s special event some 20 mins after the main meal - and noticed a huge high/low, then a definite spike in sugar interest the next day or two…

Another time I had homemade cocoa oversweetened with Stevia as an evening mug, and had a weird feeling, and light headache/hangover the next morning which caused me to steer clear of high doses of Stevia and consider alternative sweeteners for future hot chocolate creations including a brief longing for old-fashioned sugary hot choc - but it passed.