Can we please stop repeating the “You have to eat at a deficit to lose weight on KETO” lie?

[barns]

One of the big things here is that you agree that nobody know 100 percent either way. This is my point. That is why I dont think we should be having threads that try and make it sound as if nobody should worry about calories. Maybe you dont need to but others may. So if someone say they hit a wall for a long period of time I’m always going to give the suggestion to check how much they are eating. It may be as simple as a few less tablespoons of mct oil or something like that. Cracks me up that everyone is willing to do long term fasts before checking their caloric intake. I think they do it because of the repetitive calories dont matter threads.

[Diygurl19]

If anything, I feel I’m not eating enough calories with TMAD and some times OMAD.

[LibbyL]

Now, yesterday I ate chicken wings

Yeah, but were they HOT chicken wings? We have to take into account the thermodynamics of the cayenne to get a true appreciation of how the wings effect the body. If they were truly spicy, you have to take into account the calories burned while yelling “hoooo-whee these are some spicy wangs!” Lifting your drink of choice repeatedly, wiping the sweat off your brow… all that takes caloric expenditure. Sometimes just eating something burns more calories than it contains… especially if you go out dancing afterwards because you just feel so darned good.

[Alex_PN]

I really enjoyed watching the Jason Whitrock videos, shame he’s descended into that rut of flogging Keto products on his website though, I’m always very wary of any YouTubers who are selling stuff.

[FrankoBear]

vagrant Viking

[MarkGossage]

I must admit I watched them as he was doing the experiment… And haven’t really caught up with his stuff since…

[Alex_PN]

@markgyeah he does the 4000 calories a day thing, admittedly alongside what seems like a full pretty heavy going exercise routine, and pretty much maintains his weight.

I think with a lot of these Youtubers, they get the hits from the website views of their videos, and then the marketing execs move into place. Exactly the same with Thomas De Lauer, `Dr’ Eric Berg etc etc.

It’s a good watch, and definitely demonstrate the inconsistencies of relying on calories theories, but I was a bit disappointed to see he’s now selling a plethora of supplements, it makes me question the credibility of the whole thing.

[Alex_PN]

just an idea… the admins of this website should set up an entire thread of forumers undertaking a similar 30/60/90 day challenge to prove some of the theories of ketogenic lifestyles on real life individuals of “a certain weight”

fully tracked, bloods, weight, additional stats - with set parameters for carbs, calories and so on.

There must be several thousand members on here - someone should make it happen, and pin it up for some hard demonstrable results for people to refer to.

[FrankoBear]

the admins of this website should set up an entire thread of forumers undertaking a similar 30/60/90 day challenge to prove some of the theories of ketogenic lifestyles on real life individuals of “a certain weight”

Brilliant idea Alex.

[Alex_PN]

I’d be up for doing it, and I’m pretty sure these websites allow for integrated excel-style spreadsheet input that can be updated by the users to show losses/gains etc ?

@admins ??

[Meerkatsandy]

I’d be up for that, as well.

[David_Stilley]

So if someone say they hit a wall for a long period of time I’m always going to give the suggestion to check how much they are eating. It may be as simple as a few less tablespoons of mct oil or something like that.

And I will more often recommend people eat more fat, usually upon inquiry under eating is more common of an issue, creating a sluggish metabolism. Most people on KETO for any significant amount of time start to fall into the under eating trap because of ridiculous notions like “You have to eat at a deficit” and they start pushing that thinking it will help them lose and it does to a point, but then it doesn’t just as suddenly. The lack of hunger makes this easy to fall into. And day after day of the same thing isn’t as effective as days of abundance mixed with days of no food. And that’s not calorie restriction, it’s called fasting.

[barns]

Uping the fat isn’t bad advice but this still goes back to what I’m saying. If you hit a wall you should probably check how much caloric intake you are getting. If you do this it will help with either problem. I do understand that eating to little is also a problem. The difference is that alot of people wont even think about the fact that overeating can also be also be a factor. If calories in didnt matter then eating to little shouldn’t matter either considering on a ketogenic diet when you run out of fat you ate you burn body fat for energy. Unfortunately it doesn’t really work if you under eat right? Funny how some are willing to look at calories in as long as it only pertains to eating to little

[barns]

This would be an interesting experiment. Still not real long term but alot better then these 21 day things people do

[Madeleine]

Uping the fat isn’t bad advice but this still goes back to what I’m saying. If you hit a wall you should probably check how much caloric intake you are getting. If you do this it will help with either problem. I do understand that eating to little is also a problem.

I think there’s a lot of truth in this ^. If keeping calories high is working for you, great! But if it’s not, cutting back until you’re lean makes a whole lot of sense - or at the very least, mix it up so that you’re alternating high-intake days with fasting or much lower intake days.

Eating to satiety is lovely, and it’s something I’ve recommended a lot on this forum but my guess is that it’s a reliable plan when your cells are sensitive to leptin and you’re metabolically healthy.
Same for high-calorie fitness buffs: Jason Whitlock and similar high-calorie experimenters are amazing, and when a troll on the forum is spouting CICO nonsense, I mention them a lot - but I think we need to recognize that eating crazy-high calories is just different when someone’s metabolically healthy and very active (and not for calorie reasons! rather for hormonal reasons).

[OldDoug]

the Dr. says “for some people autophagy during fasting may stop if they consume a little fat.” It was in relation to eating a little butter or HWC during a fast. His comment about burning all the energy you have consumed was about starting autophagy not weight loss. The doctor was Dr. Nadir Ali, a cardiologist.

But there is controversy about how autophagy works. Dr. Fung states that autophagy is driven by the absence of dietary protein and carbohydrates.

While we certainly don’t know everything about autophagy, it’s true that the things that have the biggest influence over it respond much, much more to protein and carbs than they do to fats. The nutrient-sensing kinases mTOR and AMPK, and the hormones insulin and glucagon. I would be interested to see why Dr. Ali thinks that a little fat “may stop autophagy.” Even approaching it from the side of trying to argue that it would, I’ve never gotten anywhere.

[barns]

My guess would be that they cant show that it stops it or not so its better to err on the side of caution. If you were wanting autophagy for medical reasons and they were saying some fat wont stop it then down the road they figure out for sure it does. People would probably be a bit on the mad side

[OldDoug]

Well, we just really don’t know. There are some things that increase autophagy, like coffee (in mice, anyway). We do know a good bit of the mechanisms and controls for autophagy, and fat, especially “a little fat” really does not look like it affects autophagy much, if at all.

[barns]

Yep. The not knowing for sure is why we always get the I think before whatever is said

[OldDoug]

It pays to identify opinion if things are not provable. I will say that when we’re fasting, we have lots of fatty acids on the go, throughout our bloodstream (from the breakdown of our stored triglycerides). Eating a little fat means more fatty acids after that fat is digested - really hard for me to see much effect.