Can anyone explain this to me (from Dr. Ken Berry) - The Proper Human Diet Spectrum

[kib1]

Welcome!

[VirginiaEdie]

I suggest just saying you eat low carb.

[PaulL]

Now let’s light the fire, burn the beast and be happy.

Amen!

Just as an aside, I find that using the words “ketogenic,” “carnivore,” or “plant-free” seems to trigger bad reactions in people, but if I say, “No sugar, starches, or grains,” they nod and reply, “Good for you!”

[PaulL]

She and Kelly Hogan started about the same time…

Not to mention Stanley Ousley, Charles Washington, and of course, Vilhjalmur Stefansson. And Mike Eades mentions a doctor in the previous century whose cure for practically every ailment was to put the patient on an all-meat diet.

[PaulL]

Honey (ancestrally appropriate)
Chocolate

These are the ones I’d be most careful with, because they are mostly sucrose (with some fructose, in the case of honey). The problem with sucrose is that it is half glucose and half fructose, and both cause problems in the body. Fructose is a metabolic toxin that causes fatty liver disease (especially in combination with ethyl alcohol). Glucose elevates serum insulin, resulting in hyperinsulinaemia/insulin-resistance, a known risk factor for cardiovascular disease, obesity, cancer, brain dysfunction, hypertension, gout, dental caries (in no particular order) and many more conditions.

People talk about how much they crave chocolate, but I firmly believe that craving is the result of the sugar content. Over time on keto, my tastes changed to the point where I now prefer unsweetened chocolate, but I have found that unsweetened chocolate holds very little interest for me, and I have gradually stopped eating it (the oxalate content is another reason I stopped).

[trukar]

Thanks for the info Paul. My chocolate is 85% minimum (higher if I can get it) and I dont eat lots of it. Honey is the puzzle to me as when tribal people are asked about their favourite foods meat is usually in first place closely followed in second place by honey. And if they find honey they dont just eat a little, they gorge on it and eat almost everything. Theres got to be something there.

[Alecmcq]

but if I say, “No sugar, starches, or grains,” they nod and reply, “Good for you!”

That’s because they think that means you eat lots of fruit and veg. The real battleground between carnivore and the conventional wisdom is fruit and veg. One holds they are not healthy at all, and one holds that they are essential for good health. My experience is clear: the CW is wrong.

I tell people (if they ask) loud and clear that I am a carnivore and I eat only meat (not quite true, but it is clear and simple and people understand… they may not agree, but they understand). If they are interested, then the further discussion refines things a bit.

People often initially think I am barking mad, but after some rational explanation around insulin and plant toxins, they often get it. Often sceptical (no issues with that!), but I invite them to go do their own research on insulin and carbs, and plant toxins. I am sure some will and some won’t. But the facts are there to find, as is the experience of carnivore if you want to do it.

[Shinita]

People talk about how much they crave chocolate, but I firmly believe that craving is the result of the sugar content.

I don’t say I crave chocolate since carnivore but I do like it sometimes. No sugar is involved (except what is in the cocoa powder and the tiny cashew) and if I make my own, no sweetener is involved. It’s not sweet at all. I love the cocoa as it’s absolutely awesome especially the new one we ordered. My chocolate not-craving but… appreciation(?) flared up.
Sometimes I drink cocoa too, it is the best, not perfect but pretty good replacement for coffee for me and I really want to almost quit coffee (no way I never have any but it should be occasional). Never would sweeten it.
So it’s the cocoa for me. Just like the coffee in a coffee (even though I put other things into both drinks).

It’s funny but even my SO who got curious about some chocolate in the supermarket last week decided he doesn’t want it because it would melt AND because our own is so much tastier anyway. His chocolate is still sweet, 11% xylitol. I find it sweeter and sweeter as time passes, I wonder when it will stop… My sweet perception is changing since 14 years though it was the same after the first low-carb year until carnivore. Now I start to forget sweeteners exist even on my wildest off days unlike in my first few on/off carnivore-ish years… And it has an effect.

Theres got to be something there.

Calories (and tastiness, of course)…? Dense food is precious if you don’t have certain access to enough food all the time…

That’s because they think that means you eat lots of fruit and veg.

Meanwhile I can’t say I eat no sugar as I eat plenty of sugar in my best times too. Eggs, cream, liver… (My plenty is very different from a high-carber’s plenty as well.)
It’s funny how differently people define “carbs” and “sugar”. I do it right, when I say sugar, I mean sugar. All kinds of sugar. But the simpler ones, definitely. What is in a fruit if not sugar? Its calories come from sugar, it’s sweet, it’s well-known it has sugar… If I want to refer to added sugar, I say added sugar. And when someone says “carbs”, I don’t have any idea what they possibly refer to. Once I met someone who didn’t consider rice carbs… Some people just can’t use the words properly. I even understand very low-carb vegs not considered “carbs” but fruits? “I eat no carbs at all! But much fruits and vegs.” Oh my. I saw that too.

The real battleground between carnivore and the conventional wisdom is fruit and veg. One holds they are not healthy at all, and one holds that they are essential for good health.

But it’s clear they aren’t essential. And fruits are Nature’s candy. A bunch of sugar and flavoring. I don’t see anything essential there… I do adore my fruits but considering them good for health (well my mental one? :D) let alone essential… Nope. And why would I eat vegs when I eat plenty of way more nutritious and much better food? I miss out on NOTHING. The facts should be obvious enough, don’t they? Just like when people call meat essential. Nope, we (humans in general, it’s not true for everyone) can get the essential nutrients from other sources. Highly useful but can do without (if one can handle some carbs. I need meat as I can’t do almost zero plant net carbs without it and I need that for optimal health and well-being). Not a single food is strichtly needed, essential nutrients are like that, nothing has monopoly on them.

[PaulL]

And if they find honey they dont just eat a little, they gorge on it and eat almost everything. Theres got to be something there.

Sure. It’s that the fructose in the honey (whether by itself or as part of glucose) has the same effect on our nucleus accumbens (reward centre) as alcohol and cocaine. The dopamine hit is tremendous.

The limiting factor in the case of honey in the wild is (a) how often do you run across a hive, and (b) the bees quite justifiably defend their stash to the death.

Not only that, but on a meat-only diet, sugar is much less tasty than when we are already eating carbs and are therefore continuously hungry. And lastly, yes, “they” don’t stop eating till all the honey is gone–but how many people is “they”? Could anyone single-handedly eat all the honey in a hive? I doubt it. Sharing a whole hive-full of honey with the entire tribe is another limit on the size of the individual portion.

Honey that’s readily-available year-round in the supermarket is a very different experience.

So when people tell you that primitive peoples lived on honey, so it must be nutritious, that’s wrong. They didn’t “live” on honey; it was a rare delicacy that they only got to enjoy infrequently.

Just as an aside, while it is true that native South American peoples lived on a lot of maize (corn, to Americans), they were able to do so, only because they figured out how to nixtamalise it to make the Vitamin B available. People in the Old World who tried to subsist on mostly maize came down with pellagra, because the conquistadores brought the food back to Europe with them, but didn’t know anything about how to prepare it properly. So like many other foods, maize can be part of a human diet only if it’s properly processed first. Otherwise, it’s harmful. Same with honey: as a rare delight, it’s wonderful; as a constant part of the diet, it’s destructive.

[PaulL]

Alec, an excellent post with some great points. Just two random comments:

The real battleground between carnivore and the conventional wisdom is fruit and veg.

Those produce-growers have very effective marketing organisations, am I right?

People often initially think I am barking mad,

BTW, is there such a thing as “barking sane”? If there isn’t, there should be!!

[Shinita]

Not only that, but on a meat-only diet, sugar is much less tasty than when we are already eating carbs and are therefore continuously hungry.

I still seriously doubt most people are hungry on a carby diet and even I was very satiated on high-carb and carbs make me hungrier (it had conditions/cost though, most people wouldn’t pay that) but I didn’t want to react to that part, actually.
I obviously don’t know anything about being on a meat-only diet, I imagine sugar is inedible there alone due to the sweetness - but I know about eating low-carb for a long time… Carby food is EXOTIC, way more interesting there for me. I never was much into bread or rice until low-carb when they become practically absent. I actually have this with carni items too: if I take a break, they taste way better.
So (certain) carbs taste way better on low-carb than on high-carb where my body already got too much of them and probably dropped my desire and especially joy from them. (Others feels bad or still very tasty but not giving me joy due to my changes.)
(Good) honey tastes SUPER good (okay, not very edible due to the sweetness but there are ways around that) but it always did, my diet doesn’t matter. Sugar never tasted particularly good as it has no flavor, just sweetness. Honey has a very rich flavor. Or a very subtle but great flavor in the case of akacia honey (my old fav and the least useful one, beekeepers say. I don’t care, I never ate honey for its worth beyond its taste).

I don’t think all people get this dopamine hit thing as I don’t even have any idea how that feels. Alcohol does a tiny unique change, sugar does nothing noticeable (but if it does something, it is negative, not positive. but it depends on the dose and many other things), cocaine probably does a lot but I never had it. It really seems we feel this different. If I need to think something rewarding, triggering, sour stuff like sauerkraut is way stronger than sugar even was (without a bunch of tasty things, at least. fruits are special and textures help). Baked goods can be triggering and super enjoyable but it doesn’t matter if they have sugar or not, it’s not where their “power” comes from (but sweet ones are more boring and less useful so I get over with them quicker).
Humans do often like sweet things, we know that, it makes sense considering our evolution. Not everyone prefers or even like sweetness (I do but maybe I just mostly love the flavor in sweet things, I do love the sweetness too, to some extent and I hate sweetness without flavor) but it’s pretty common.

[Alecmcq]

Those produce-growers have very effective marketing organisations, am I right

I have always thought of produce growers as politically non-powerful. The powerful lobbies tend to be the voracious very large multinationals in drugs and food. Their vested interest aligns with the produce growers, so I think the produce guys tag along.

is there such a thing as “barking sane”?

Absolutely not. Barking is to be used exclusively with mad.

[PaulL]

I have always thought of produce growers as politically non-powerful.

“Politically non-powerful” perhaps, but with a highly effective marketing arm. I suspect the authorities have been influenced just as much as the public.