Bummed by bad blood test results


(Dave) #21

Hi Justin—

I’ll concede Lp(a) isn’t yet fully in my wheelhouse yet as I’ve mainly focused on the energy model of lipids which typically doesn’t touch on it as much. That said, I definitely know three people to check into:

  • The Uber-Awesome @siobhan, who just happens to be working on a piece regarding Lp(a) for our blog.

  • Ivor Cummins, of course. He’s actually got some great blog posts on it and himself has high Lp(a).

  • Ken Sikaris, a magnificent Australian lipidologist. Check out his Low Carb Down Under videos.


(Justin) #22

Thanks so much Dave! @siobhan . Would you be able to give me any insight into the questions I asked Dave above?


(Siobhan) #23

I think probably the most succinct and relevant thing to post would be this graph:
IMG_20171120_221217

This is something that Ivor shared and it highlights that even WITH high lp(a) risk for CAD was not significantly elevated unless there was high (likely chronic) inflammation present (e.g. oxidation going on).
The more I learn about lp(a) the more I suspect that just like LDL it has different functions, some of which land it at the crime scene… but not for necessarily negative reasons (like taking on oxidized phospholipid - potentially to more rapidly clear it so damage doesnt spread).

It’s also important to note that lp(a) is partially genetic for its baseline. In theory if you have a high baseline but low oxidative stress (e.g. no smoking, low amounts of inflammatory oils, not currently sick, no refined carbs or sugar, etc - all of which are tied to higher oxstress and potentially higher lp(a) too) then it may not be an issue from what I’ve seen and what Ivor has presented as well.

Mechanistically it makes sense too. It may be there to clean up the mess, but may have other jobs too. If it’s not high because it’s cleaning up a mess, then they’re busy doing something that doesn’t have to do with heart disease (potentially).

If over all the system looks okay, it doesn’t look like theres a bunch of fires going on (inflammation, high insulin, low hdl, high triglycerides when fasting for 12-14 hours, chronically high CRP) then according to the data we currently have that doesnt necessarily imply something bad. Even in the papers I’ve gone through people sometimes just shrug and say we don’t fully understand lp(a)'s full mechanistic purpose yet. So like LDL it could turn out that it could be low or high for good or bad reasons.
We just don’t know yet, and pinning it all on one marker without context of the system imo is not wise (and Im talking about the people drumming up fear about it, here, not you).

Sorry for writing a novel here, but tl;dr even with high lp(a) risk doesn’t elevate without inflammation (chronic cause of inflammation in other words) and may be high for genetic reasons, and because it likely has multiple functions we don’t fully understand yet. Look at the system health, not a solitary marker!

Oh and as for high LDL… I wrote a post on the mechanisms of heart disease here:


You might find it useful. In short there is very good reason to believe, in my view based off of the research I’ve done so far, it is damaged LDL that is a problem in heart disease - not high LDL in itself. Give it a read and see if it gives you a different perspective :slight_smile:

Thanks for the tag @daveketo I swear the lp(a) post is on my to-do list :smile:

oh and… one more thing. You mentioned trying to lower LDL to prevent lp(a) production but because the system is very good at getting the message out when it needs something if signals are sent that say “I need lp(a)” or “I need LDL” they’ll be made. Period.
The point isnt to wipe them out, at least to me, it’s to understand why theyre being made and determine if it’s a sign that some sort of damage is going on. (which is gained by looking at all your markers together as a whole).
I hope that helps!


(Justin) #24

Wow! No need to apologize for the thorough answer! It is highly appreciated! Thanks so much for this info. I’m in the process of speaking with Ivor as well and will take all of this into consideration. :slight_smile: @siobhan


(Justin) #25

@siobhan
@DaveKeto

L.p.(a) came to my attention (and made me quite paranoid) when I saw that Bob Harper from Biggest Loser had a heart attack a few months back and everyone revealed a few months after that it was most likely due to genetics (LPa) specifically. You think …“Man, but he must be SO healthy, if it happens to people like him at 51 , we are all screwed!”

Haha…

So I demanded an LP(a) knowing my family history and got the answer I didn’t want …but glad to know regardless and glad to be able to try and reverse all this sooner than later.

Thanks again .


(Dave) #26

As an aside, I hope to eventually have volunteers who are doing the protocol and see what happens with Lp(a) and whether it moves in concert with the other lipid markers.


(Siobhan) #27

Yeah the bob harper thing. I slightly suspect the “it’s probably genetic” thing is actually just code for “we don’t know why this happened especially because he followed all the heart healthy guidelines” but I may be overly suspicious.
I would be quite curious to know what his fasting insulin was for example… which is very very well tied to progression of cvd. Or his TG:HDL ratio which also happens to work as a good proxy for insulin resistant status and small dense LDL level.
But, neither of those markers are especially well known to the mainstream, and lp(a) is a lot more new and interesting to people, and it’s also something he noticed.

But it looks like youre already doing what I would do (and suggest). Seek out information, see what sticks and what doesn’t hold weight. Test out on yourself, and be a skeptic. I wish you luck and I hope you do end up finding the answers that you’re looking for.

It is hard to admit we don’t know sometimes, and harder to admit maybe other people don’t know 100% either - that’s why I like understanding mechanisms. (even if sometimes they leave me with more questions than answers) :wink:


(Justin) #28

@siobhan Thanks so much again. I’m sure I will be in touch and looking forward to more of your very well researched and thought out posts.


(Justin) #29

@siobhan Oh! One more question for clarification. In YOUR opinion , you suggest I continue following a healthy LCHF diet in order to keep all this at bay ? I love Keto but the result scared me and made me wonder if what I was doing was right internally. I lost 30 pounds which was amazing but …internally is really what matters .

I was considering staying keto or going Forks over Knives/Dr.Furhman/Eat to Live/Dr.Caldwell approach , strict vegan , no sugar, no refined carbs, but oats and beans. I’ve read though that the carb intake is what can cause LDL to rise as well as small particles. Basically almost the complete opposite of Keto save for the no sugar.

Or I was considering following a more vegetarian Keto diet …Diet Doctorr has some great meal plans for that too.

Anyway, just wondering what your opinion on which diet you would follow if you were in my shoes .

Thanks.


(Siobhan) #30

I cant offer any medical or nutritional advice because I’m no doctor or nutritionist but I can say that I’ve come across multiple studies that consistently show a few dietary things that elevate lp(a) and/or small dense LDL from baseline (the potentially important part) that at least have made me squinty eyed about them:

  • High refined carbohydrates (flours, processed grains, things like that)
  • High sugar consumption
  • Unstable fats like seed oils that are easily oxidized

Those are pretty promising as far as documented effect goes and I think can at least tentatively be labeled as reasonable to avoid or at least things that I avoid.

To be honest I would probably turn myself into a human guinea pig experimenting within that range - and keep getting tests to see how things change.
Not just lp(a) but especially things like TG:HDL ratio, fasting insulin, hsCRP, and of course keep track of how you feel (mood, weight gain or loss, joints, energy, etc) and then take all of that and try and find something that works best for you that’s supported by changes in your system health (all your markers taken into consideration).

So, honestly, if you want to try some things try some things. I don’t know if LCHF is the “best” diet, (I don’t know if anyone knows this, honestly) I do know my own markers have improved, and the mechanisms behind it at least probably not being harmful are there to the best of my understanding.

But as for what I recommend? I recommend trying to find something that makes you feel at your best, and brings about the best health… which may take some experimenting to find (full disclosure I’m following a carnivore + dairy diet for the past month which Ill be getting tests on shortly - so even I’m still experimenting).
My dad did have a heart attack in his 40s so I sort of am in a similar situation, although I dont know my lp(a) yet, and can understand that nervousness when messing with your own health.
As far as LDL goes, its such a hugely noisy marker (can be high for good or bad reasons, or low for good or bad reasons, and doesnt reliably track with risk) I try to focus more on multiple markers together so I can get as detailed a picture as possible.

I may sound wishy-washy here but I’m trying to say I don’t know what will work best for you (or anyone), and I don’t know what will lead to the healthiest state over all (or at least the least bad) - that’s actually what I’m trying to find out with my own research! :slight_smile:
With lp(a) especially there are a lot of unknowns, and even I’m trying to figure out its mysteries still… a work in progress.


(Emily Fink Ferreira) #31

@siobhan

Just need a fangirl moment:

I love the work you’re doing on cholesterolcode.com. I loved the talk you did with the dudes. I can’t thank you enough for your time and efforts. I know it’s a labor of love and interest on your part, but it benefits me greatly as well. THANK YOU, citizen scientist! XO


(Siobhan) #32

Thank you! A big reason for writing articles and popping up on podcasts is to share what I’ve learned with others, and hopefully have it be enjoyable or useful. :slight_smile:

It’s a fantastic opportunity to share what I think is interesting and important and I’m grateful I’ve had it and that you enjoy it! <3

If you enjoyed my appearance on 2KD you may be happy to know that Ketogeek (a podcast) ping’d me and Dave on twitter for a duel interview so you’ll get to hear me chatter on about lipids when it’s all recorded and done (not sure when that will be yet). :smile:
I’m a fan of their podcast so I’m quite excited!
Again thank you!!