Bone loss / joint pain on longterm keto?

#22

Last thing that comes to mind is a lack of growth hormone.

The effect of a 10-week Nordic walking training program on the level of GH and LH in elderly women

Nordic walking uses 90% of the muscles in the body (including those of the lower and upper extremities), strengthens the muscles of the upper body and shoulders and increases the mobility of the upper segment of the spine. Over the course of our 10-week study, this training program was carried out three times a week under a trainer’s supervision and three times a week in smaller groups without the trainer’s guidance (in total: 60 sessions of 60 min each). Prior to commencing the program, training in the rehabilitation technique was carried out and participants were tested on their mastery. All the participants mastered the exercise rules. A warm-up was organized before every training session. The average daily distance amounted to 3.6 km initially. As progress in rehabilitation was made and exercise tolerance improved, the average daily distance increased to 4.8 km. The average estimated energy expenditure of each session amounted to 428 kcal. All the patients completed the full rehabilitation program.
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.3109/13697137.2015.1058354

(Bob M) #23

Have you tried backing off oxalates? That is, spinach, dark chocolate (the latter, I have not been able to give up), etc.

#24

Thank you!
The actual menu is just regular keto foods minus the meat. Lots of dairy. Lots of veggies nuts and berries

Love and Protect Animals :paw_prints:

(Gregory - You can teach an old dog new tricks.) #25

Do you actually have a menu from the study?

" Regular Keto Foods " would include lots of meat…

Nuts, veggies and berries could include lots of carbs…

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #26

@SnowOwl1 You can certainly eat or not eat whatever you please. However, as noted above lack of sufficient protein can also be a source of bone density loss and related issues. Your body will try to compensate by drawing down the biggest store of protein you’ve got. For me, the primary concern about vegetarian keto is getting sufficient protein in sufficient quantity and quality. A consideration is that some of those ‘lots of veggies, nuts and berries’ might be interfering with protein absorption.


(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #27

Ketogenic diets for epileptic children have been so high in fat and so low in protein that they have caused trouble for the children as they grew. Hence the problems with bone growth mentioned in the literature. I wish I had made a note of which lecture I was watching, because in something I watched recently, the presenter said in passing that it had been demonstrated that a ketogenic diet with a decent level of protein intake was still able to control seizures.

It may not be worth trying to track down the video, because I don’t recall whether he even gave a reference to a study, since the remark was very much in passing. I will see if I can somehow track down such a study. But it was good news to hear, since growing children should not be subjected to limits on their protein intake.

(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #28

Something I learned since going keto is that, while we think of bones as being made of calcium, they are actually calcium contained in a protein matrix, so lack of enough protein in the diet is definitely going to affect bone as well as muscle.

#29

I’m going to recited the paper I listed above because it reminds me of that fork over knives vegan movie I watched years ago in which they showed that man made low fat dairy causes osteoporosis because the higher amounts of protein due to removing the fat causes metabolic acidosis and then calcium is released from bones to buffer the blood acidity.

Results : Urine pH decreased from 6.09 (Usual) to 5.56
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0272638602000392

#30

Sounds like a Dom D’Agostino-type comment.

(Bob M) #31

And they were terrified of saturated fat, so used a lot of PUFAs. That’s one of the problems with this unreasonable fear of saturated fat.

(Allie) #32

I’m sure there are masses of studies linking dairy consumption with loss of bone density as I remember them from my vegan days…

(Edith) #33

Look into oxalate. When I first started keto, I was eating lots of oxalate containing food: lots of greens, nuts, and berries. Over time I developed heart palpitations due to magnesium deficiency. I supplemented magnesium, I shouldn’t have gotten deficient.

Then I learned about oxalate. It binds with calcium and magnesium and prevents those minerals from getting absorbed. As a vegetarian eating lots of greens, nuts, and berries, you are probably getting a large dose of oxalate.

Oxalate poisoning was known by our ancestors. They would see it in the spring, particularly during rhubarb season.

Today, because we have all foods available to us all times of the year, we don’t have the change in seasons to give our bodies a chance to detox from the different plant anti nutrients, especially oxalate. So, it may not be keto itself causing the hip pain, but the food choices.

There are several threads on the forum with some links. You may want to do a search. I’m not a vegan or vegetarian, but I have heard there are some vegan sites that do warn of oxalate toxicity.

(Bob M) #34

I’m only an N=1 and can’t really test this, but the only pain I have in a joint is in my left hip, and this does seem to come and go based on how much (dark) chocolate I eat. It could be just my mind making that up, though. But if I can eat no chocolate (don’t really eat anything else with oxalates), my pain seems to disappear.

Tough to give up my one vice (other than my one alcoholic drink per week), though.

(Joey) #35

I’d be cautious about recommending calcium, especially for bone health. Most western diets (and even keto included) are rarely deficient in calcium itself. They’re deficient in Vit A and Vit D … which directs calcium into bone. Lacking sufficient D and A, the calcium winds up being deposited in your circulatory system… i.e., arteries become “calcified.”

Bone/teeth need calcium, to be sure. In order to get the calcium in your diet into such structures (and minimize calcium sclerosis in your coronary arteries) keep a closer eye on Vit K2 and D3, in particular.

Lots of research on this point from reliable peer-reviewed sources. Do some reading on this topic. But the short takeaway is: don’t just take calcium supplements… you’re not likely helping your bones and. you are likely promoting longer-term heart disease.

(Stephanie ) #36

I’m 39 and i was recently diagnosed with osteoarthritis in both hips and my right is severe, most likely will be needing a hip replacement soon, like within a year. It came out of nowhere and has progressively gotten worse over the past 9 months.

I have been keto for almost 4 years and have lost 80 lbs. I am not an athlete nor do i do any exercises that could overtime aide in the development of arthritis. It is not in my family either.
I truly don’t believe my being on keto has contributed to me developing osteoarthritis, i just think this is just something that happened. All other blood tests, exams have all been positive.

I wish you luck!

(Allie) #37

Stephanie I send you healing and love :heart:

(Stephanie ) #38

Thank you :purple_heart: