Body Set Weight - Getting Lean, and Calorie restriction

science
fasting
(Kameel Awdish) #1

Hi Guys,

I am new on this forum, i have had a look and couldnt find an answer to my query, i do apologise if im asking something thats already been mentioned in this forum.

I am 28y/o and came across the obesity code and all of dr. jason fungs lectures in feb 2017. this gave me the motivation to fast, i started at 90.4KG and 28.6% body fat. After the fast i went down to 83KG and my body fat % dropped to 22% (was checked several days after i broke the fast). i then ate 1 meal a day, with low carbs and maintained my weight for almost 8 months, until i went back to my bad eating habits after the summer and gained the weight back.

Dr Fung mentioned body set weight, which is the ideal weight your body strives for. So if im fasting and doing a keto diet along with it and eating to satiety instead of counting calories, in theory my body should achieve this BSW number. My question is this, what if i want to be leaner than my BSW, do i need to start eating less (once fat adapted) in order to burn off the fat? surely i dont continue eating to satiety? This concept confuses me because Dr. Fung also says that lowering your cals would lower your metabolism and so it has nothing to do with calories in vs calories out.

The only explanation is can think of is that when you are truley fat adapted then eating less wouldnt drop your metabolism as your body is running on its fat stores and so technically your metabolism/energy output should not drop? is this correct?

side note: i love this forum, and all the support and information this forum and the 2keto dudes provide!

Thanks.

Setpoint causing hunger urges
(Tessy M.) #2

The Obesity Code podcast with Dr. Fung and Megan Ramos explains in detail the difference between lowering your calories and fasting. If you haven’t given them a listen yet, you should. It’s one of the first few episodes they talk discuss this specifically.
In short, eating less in a sugar burning state will trigger short term weight loss only. Eating fewer calories regularly throughout the day means your insulin stays high and your body is not able to burn the fat.
Fasting lowers your insulin allowing your body to access its fat stores for food if you are fat adapted. Your body does not think it is starving when you’re fat adapted and have low insulin.

(Kameel Awdish) #3

Hi TN Tdyno! thanks for the reply :))

Ive listend to the podcast previously, and i accept everything youve said. My question is this however, assuming you are fat adapted and not in a sugar burning state, and with time your body has reached its ideal weight, (ideal weight being the ‘body set weight’ that jason fung compares to your set body temprature (37deg), its a set weight that your body will always try to maintain assuming you are metabolically healthy. how do you get below that weight?

for EG my healthy normal weight lets assume is 80KG and 17% body fat… what if i wanted to be more lean and wanted to go down to 76KG or down to 10%-12% body fat? would restricting kcal on a ketogentic (fat adapted enviornment) achieve that? :thinking:

(Tessy M.) #4

Well that’s a bit too advanced for me to answer, but I still am pretty sure calorie restriction is not the answer.
The reason I don’t believe it is is simple. There are many athletes worldwide wide who do not restrict calories, and eat, a lot, and get their body fat percentage below 20%.

(Kameel Awdish) #5

yes i agree. food for thought though, once fat adapted and eating say in a deficit, it could be that your body will fuel itself with its fat stores to make the difference thus technically youre not in a deficit…? i suppose thats my personal instuition. Maybe thats how those athletes are getting those results… Also must factor in athletes bodies tend to be metabolically healthy and and are more efficient than the standard, most athletes start young, and are spotted at an early age by sport proffessionals.

In fact i spoke to a podiatrist who said that a lot of sport proffessionals scout kids from a young age, they look out for the ones who dont have flat feet, who dont stumble and fall when they play, who have excellent balance and energy, Genetics does play a part, @richard mentioned that his father being a rugby player gave him a strong body for eg.

(Lonnie Hedley) #6

You might want to check out ketosavage. I watch the couple from ketoconnect.net (Matt and Megha). They’re currently working with him doing a cut. They don’t give specifics because ketosavage charges for his consultations, but it sounds like they’re doing what you’re describing. Over time they are slowly reducing calories. I’m assuming they’re meeting protein goals and cutting out fat to restrict calories.

I’d guess Matt is in the 18-20% range, so similar to you, and he’s hoping to get closer to 10-15% I think.

(Kameel Awdish) #7

brilliant! will def be checking them out. thanks

(Mark Rhodes) #8

I am just beginning to research Dr. Bergman who talks a great deal on this subject. Fung has a series on IDM site .

I would agree that calorie restriction isn’t the key but one cannot expect to run with an excess either. I am attempting to get to single digits BF and currently at 15.9% with another Dexascan set for the 17th. I am hoping to have lost another 4-6 lbs of fat in the two months since my last. My weight fluctuates ten pounds any given week due to fasting. But during feasting (keto) I always go back to the weight I started at if not more and yes, I lift heavy. I want to gain LBM as well as lose body fat.

(Olivia) #9

Check out
https://www.reddit.com/r/ketogains/

(Kameel Awdish) #10

thats very helpful, would love to know the results of your next scan and best of luck to you! I noticed that i always go back to my original weight too even though my clothes are getting looser. i lift heavy, i do weighted calisthenics and 5x5’s on handstand pushups, deadlifts, squats, and bench (usually i do weighted pushups instead). thanks for the info!

roughly 15% is the lowest ive ever achieved and that was 7 years ago, and to be honest i lost a lot of muscle/strength because at the time i was tracking/restricting (and eating low fat) calories and excercising too much, i did get lean, but after my holiday guess what, gained weight back with a vengence! - i believe cycles like that is whats damaged my metabolism further.

(Kameel Awdish) #11

woah looks like a whole new world of info has opened up. thank you for this!

(Tessy M.) #12

The trouble isn’t not having a kcal deficit, the problem is the presence of food and thus insulin. Eating triggers insulin. The insulin release means your body will not burn it’s fat stores.
Have you tried extended fasting?

I would agree more efficient. And by metabolically healthy, I would agree that they have not developed T2, but as Dr. Fung pointed out in one of his podcasts, a high percentage of this worlds population is insulin resistant, they just don’t know it because the A1C test results don’t show the problem.
I suppose my point is, appearing to be metabolically healthy does not guarantee one is. And in my case :smile: appearing to NOT be metabolically healthy doesn’t mean one is not.

(Kameel Awdish) #13

the longest i fasted was for 10 days feb 2017, i got results that i couldnt even believe myself. i dropped from 90KG to 83KG (15lbs weight loss), and my body changed so much, even family and friends were asking how the hell i did it! now fast forward 12 months, i got married, started a new job and ate all the crap i tought my body not to eat. i gained the weight back and more. i had enough and didnt want to diet for months… so decided to do a 7 day fast hoping to achieve similar results, but this time i only lost 2kg… really dont know why, now just trying to KCKO

Note* after first fast i went down further to 79KG and maintained this for 8 months before i started eating crap.

(Tessy M.) #14

That is incredible!
Yes, KCKO. You know your body can do it!

(Ken) #15

IMO, there is no genetic “set point” for body fat levels. Your problem is that you don’t understand that very low Carb, high fat is “Baseline” nutrition, rather that a temporary diet for losing fat. That’s why you regained, going from a fat based pattern to a Carb based one. Had you kept your Carb intake as per types, amounts, and frequency to the point where you didn’t chronically overcompensate glycogen, you would not have regained any fat. I haven’t regained an ounce in over 17 years and when in maintenance eat a fairly large amount of carbs. I just understand when I eat them, I have to allow them to clear out of my system so I don’t create a pattern that will cause any regain. You regained by eating crap, but because it became a chronic pattern. If you had eaten crap periodically/infrequently you wouldn’t have gained back the fat.

(Kameel Awdish) #16

Right, but then do you continue losing fat until there is not more fat on your body on a ketogenic diet?

(Ken) #17

I think that at some point at very low body fat levels, the ghrelin response will take over, keeping you in Lipostasis.

#18

I’ve often wondered about the very thing you are asking, how do you lower your set point? After doing a lot of reading on the subject I’ve come to the conclusion that it’s rather complicated. In a nutshell, your body will lower it’s set point over time if you do the right things. You cannot lower your own set point per se. Satiety seems to be the key here, if you eat the right foods to satiety the idea is that your body will naturally adjust your hunger to coincide with the exact amount of energy deficit you have. For example, you are getting 1,000 calories from body fat and your body wants 2,500 calories per day, in that case you would reach satiety after the consumption of 1,500 calories. The real key is satiety, a somewhat abstract concept but something which even the foremost experts (Phinney, Westman, Eenfeldt, etc) refer back upon time and time again.

My take on the subject is that the body is very smart but many things we do and have done have disrupted and fooled our natural mechanisms for hunger. As a result, you have to do a lot of things right for a long time to get back on track. The more tdamage you’ve done the more time you’ll need to commit. I find my body to be very skeptical and slow to embrace changes. That can be very frustrating when you feel like you’ve done everything right and not much has happened. But it will, I just try to focus on the big picture. The number one way I’ve found for me to show my body that I’m very serious is by doing some extended fasting. I will never hit my goal weight by being keto alone, I’ve realized that. But I’ll also never gain weight while eating keto so I know all I need to do is lose the weight by fasting and then maintain by eating low carb. And the more I fast the more I enjoy it so it’s hardly the chore it used to be. Good luck.

(Kameel Awdish) #19

Very well put, it takes time to undo the damage, and even then its tough for some, supplementing with fasting def boosts results like nothing else. Your body lowering it set point with time actually makes a lot of sense to me! thank you for making that point.

(Mark Rhodes) #20

Kameel - Between Oct 12 and December 12 per Dexascan I went from 20.4% to 15.9%. That time included three 5 day fasts and one MASSIVE Thanksgiving 5 day feast. The feast was all carbs approved by keto people such as almond flour, broccoli, cauliflower but the amounts? I easily hit 200 carbs a day. My BHB never dropped below .2mmol.

Currently I am on the 90th hour of a fast of indeterminate length. This time I have been eating some HWC & butter to offset the calorie deficit that my body can no longer make.