Anyone experienced with Dirty Keto?

#11

I had no meat on keto (I overate protein without that) in the first years but on early carnivore, I had a time with super salty smoked pork (very great, from the nearby pig farm) and chicken liver and that’s it for meat. IDK how I could do it but it wasn’t ideal… Still better than NOT doing it :wink:

I hate sweet meat so I either buy processed meat made by zero sugar (not particularly hard though it limits the options quite much…) or with some but below 0.5% (almost everything I am interested in is like that and this 0.5g carbs per 100g is partially paprika).

#12

My son is having this problem right now. He is still in college starting his 5th year. He fell off the diet gained back all his weight plus a LOT more, has bad acne, and his mental health is declining again. All this after the opposite happened to him 8 months on Keto. He tells me it’s because he can’t afford the diet. But I have seen his checking account and how he spends his money when he eats out everywhere or does door dash etc. He is now paying more money for food than he did on Keto when he had steak at least 4-5x/week. Dirty Keto is very expensive. Processed and packaged foods do not last long and have few servings for the expense. But cooking a roast in the oven and putting left overs in the fridge to eat from over a 3-4 day period is not only healthier and delicious, it can be cheaper. I just spent $49 on a rib roast that I was able to cut 7 thick ribeyes from. That comes out to $7 per steak! It was so delicious, had amazing fat flavors, and was even good cold. Then I make about $30 of cut up chicken pieces and we snack from that in our fridge all week. I’ll make chicken salad sometimes, but usually it’s so tasty to just grab a piece cold and chow down. :rofl: It takes prep for sure to eat healthier. You have to be willing to forfeit convenience and do some baking/sauteing/roasting. Convenience is expensive. But you can do clean Keto for the same cost as dirty Keto. I’m living proof and I eat amazing. I just put most my dollars to large cuts of meat and cook a bulk amount ahead of time. I also find good recipes for things like Keto bagels (like using a fat head dough) that taste amazing with cream cheese, nut butters, or sockeye salmon. Even sandwich meat.

This is a very healthy diet and what you are hearing about it healthwise is truer than you can imagine. But don’t fall into the trap of eating prepackaged/over processed “Keto food”. You will pay more for that lunch meat than cooking your own roast or other meat and cutting it up for yourself.

#13

The ones I use are great at it though. It’s one reason I love them, I can just buy them in advance and can enjoy them for months (several months for the freezable ones). Not all kinds, sure but most of the ones I buy lasts for quite a few weeks.
That is the problem with such a huge group, I never know which items people think about… They are wildly different, after all.
But aren’t processed items usually long-lasting? A big part of them is specifically processed to last long, they have preservatives, they are dried… Not all but normal food doesn’t last long either.

I never liked most of deli meats (I went back to the original post…) so I don’t even know how much they last, probably not much but people go shopping frequently so it doesn’t seem matter so much…?

I pretty much agree with the rest. Though after all those vegetarian low-carb/keto years, roasting some meat or boiling/frying some eggs is super convenient to me :smiley: Vegs and baking was so much work, how could I do that? I did like cooking but it got tiresome sometimes especially after I had to cook differently for my SO and myself.

True, just grabbing something is even simpler but it couldn’t satisfy me at all. That would be some temporal emergency eating… But I know many modern people eat in odd ways from my viewpoint (like sandwiches for lunch, how crazy is that? not very much, apparently, I saw it everywhere. maybe it’s a different culture?).

And making a whole meal from processed stuff? Oh my, I am way too poor for that! I need normal keto based on normal meat… I need a substantial meal so pricy processed things just won’t do.

#14

Yeah there are packaged things that last long and are good for you, such as the unsweetened dried cranberries I bought that have only one ingredient, cranberries. Nothing else at all. A large bag lasts me about 6 months. I don’t use a lot at once, just a sprinkling, but the carbs from other dried cranberry brands are usually in the other ingredients and what they use to add sweetness, even ones labeled lower sugar are bad imho because I won’t touch any sugar. I make my own when they are in season, but when they aren’t I buy these. So yeah there are some things that can last longer that aren’t that bad for us. Parmesan crisps are a good example. Almond crackers that I get are tasty and have responsible and healthy ingredients in them. They have a great shelf life but aren’t very filling. Then of course there’s all the nuts.

I was referring primarily to foods marketed specifically for Keto, or that use Keto on their labels to attract more buyers when in reality they are higher carb than we would want and have frankenfood ingredients in them. Quest cookies and chips, Keto bars, Atkins products and the like, etc etc. Even beef jerky isn’t made properly and few would fit my clean Keto standard so I make my own jerky. Most of these things have one or two servings but cost a lot. I recently tried Gouda cheese balls that were delicious, but an 11oz bag cost $22. Literally had 4-5 servings at most if you kept it to 2T. SMH why bother? So I bought a block of Gouda and made my own. They were really good, but different. More dense. It was obvious the way they made theirs required some lab ingredients and different processing of the cheese before making the balls, possibly dry grated then formed to get a cheese puff crunch? My point is that the expense was NOT worth the number of servings at all or the extra ingredients. Mine were better because of that. Lol

Also lunch meat is more expensive than buying and cooking the meat yourself and the processed lunch meat has stuff in it that’s not the best for our health. I also have found it never lasts longer than my home cooked meats.

#16

@Alvin_Kim
P.S. while I’m not carnivore so I don’t eat strictly only meat, I can say for certain there is no malnutrition from a primarily meat only diet. That’s misinformation that has been marketed since the 60s and on. Meat has almost everything you need. I don’t think any Keto dieters worry about that.

At most you may need to supplement salt and potassium and magnesium.

As for standard Keto, which allows some carbs and some non-animal foods, you can get more of the nutrients in your selection of fruits and veggies and nuts. We choose more fibrous options with healthier nutrients rather than empty carbs that have very little real benefits. Like choosing berries instead of a banana or a mango, or choosing almond or coconut flours over highly-processed white wheat flour, or choosing a butternut squash over a sweet potato, or cauliflower and broccoli over a large serving of carrots or sweet corn. (I do include a very small serving of carrots maybe once a month.)

#17

Hello Alvin Kim, what does "dirty keto’ mean to you? Please could you make a list of foods that you think form the dirty keto way of eating.

So far we have:

  1. Deli Meat - what is deli meat?
  2. “Salads” - what things go in your salad?

Here is how to do dirty keto. Buy ground beef and eggs, cook them in ghee, eat that with a leafy green salad of leaf-greens only with a splash of plain vinegar on it. Eat as much as you like twice a day in the afternoon and evening.

It may be dirty keto, but I call it the Time machine Diet :copyright: - In 28-days you will be 10 years younger.

No malnutrition.

Can anyone explain this to me (from Dr. Ken Berry) - The Proper Human Diet Spectrum
(Alvin Kim) #18

Thank you Franko!

The deli meats that I’m talking about are ham, bacon, sausages, bologna etc.

My salads consists of kale, swiss chard, and spinach. The salads I eat until full.

I cannot afford ground beef. I can but it is so low quality, that I would gag while rrying to eat them.

I kind of already got my answer thanks to Amy Berger who I learned from yesterday, that based on her experience and her clients’, processed foods are okay and even seed oils are. Omega 3’s don’t mean anything she claims. She looks very healthy and I think she is Dr. Eric Westman’s best advocate as she hosts live Q/A for him. She sounds convincing too. If you want more info, here is a link to just one of her videos on Youtube. https://youtu.be/LZqdW64KJEc?si=nljZiUDMb2TA8pAP

#19

It’s not so important for me anymore but wow, you have found that! I can buy many dried fruits unsweetened but never cranberries (or just from a webshop for way more money. like, a few times as much). Oh well, one can live without cranberries. It’s great I can buy canned pineapple without added sugar unlike decades ago… (It is a super sweet fruit, it’s INSANE to add even more but this is people for you. By the way, dried pineapple ALWAYS has added sugar here. I could make my own I suppose but cranberries? I can’t get cranberries except the dried, sugared stuff. And it’s sad as it has a nice flavor otherwise and while I can live without it, others will just buy the sugary stuff even if they would prefer it unsweetened.)

I mostly thought about my own processed items, primarily meat :slight_smile:

Oh indeed, that is a thing in some countries too… Not so much here but if there is any, it’s some overpriced stuff I don’t need so I didn’t think about those. I don’t think that is relevant if one really wants to spare money but I don’t really KNOW as never saw such “keto” items. (Except oatmeal, they were called keto on the package. They were carby as all oatmeal.)

Cheese gets airy puffy crunchy just fine when nuked, no need to grate or add anything. It works with Gouda and other half-hard cheese, I made it once with softer cheese, it doesn’t work so well with hard cheeses. I prefer half-hard cheeses anyway so it isn’t a problem for me.

Indeed. That’s why I wrote in my first comment that I don’t get why would processed meat help with the costs…
The cost may be lower per kg but it’s due to all the water and whatever in it. We don’t get the same amount of nutrients. There is a sausage, very cheap, way cheaper than any pork but it has what, 20% meat? :smiley: I buy the one with more meat (still low), double price (still cheap for processed meat and as much as pork chuck on sale… pork chuck is worth it way more BUT sometimes I enjoy a few slices of this stuff, easy to eat, extra something when I had just a tad less meat I needed… people usually use it in cooking, we do that too. the spices are nice, sometimes I eat it even when I don’t want my normal meat. but eating a lot of such things? would feel very weird and wrong).

All the things I buy too and eat in moderation. Well these items may be horrible or quite fine and everything in-between, it depends on the actual item. It still seems wrong and way too expensive to live on them but I am no expert and if you buy the right ones, it still will be a better diet than the average person’s though that is a low bar.
It’s easy to overdo sodium this way, by the way (depends on the person though. and the actual items), processed items are quite salty and often super salty. I don’t need more sodium on keto and can’t handle anything near the keto recommended amount so there is that. But I still saw overly salty processed items. Many are fine though, I mean, I don’t find them too salty but if I ate only those, I personally still would get too much sodium.

(Edith) #20

If you live in the US, you can get fairly good quality ground beef for $5/pound and chicken drumsticks or chicken leg quarters for $1-2/pound. You can even get pork shoulder roasts for just $2-3/pound and that could feed your for multiple days. I think that would definitely come out cheaper than the processed meats.

With that being said, yes, I do think that eating processed meats and fresh salad is better than ultra processed carbs. :blush:

Now, I’m not saying this to be snarky, more of a gentle ribbing… How much of the eating the processed meat is because you actually just don’t want to cook? :wink:

(Alvin Kim) #21

It’s not that I don’t want to cook. It is purely because of the price T^T… I live in South Korea and the beef prices are outrageous and so is meat in general. :confused:

(Robin) #22

Understandable. So just do what you can afford. Deli meat and veggies will get you where you need to be.

#23

If meat in bigger amounts is out, little meat then. If other good low-carb items are more affordable, I mean. If everything is pricy, that’s unfortunate.
Look at prices, ingredient list (I have written about it earlier, it’s not worth it to buy some deli meat that is mostly water when you can much more value buying proper meat. and you probably want to avoid certain ingredients), use your knowledge about what satiates and satisfies you (chicken may be the cheapest here, by far but it’s mostly tasteless and not satiating so I only use it occasionally. more now that I have an air fryer so crunchy skin is attainable! :smiley: tasty chicken exists - for a higher price than beef or deer so no thanks), use sales, buy in bulk etc.!
It is good for food cost if you can eat moderate protein (even if it comes with fat fast and EF, it’s my only way…). Oh yeah, no need to spend much money on fat, fat should be very cheap. I do eat butter as it’s awesome but very little. My cooking fat comes from my fatty pork :slight_smile: Fatty (but not extremely fatty) meat is useful, a bit less protein but all the fat I need… But the very fatty cuts don’t worth it to me, I can get that much joy, good protein and fat for way less.
But I write about meat again but it’s the cheapest food for me here… And some is probably useful to have even if you can’t afford to eat a whole pound a day or something.

How expensive deli meat is? It makes little sense for processed stuff to be cheaper - but if it is, it’s not for value or protein content, just per weight and you would need to eat way more of it. Meat is more effective, at least if you choose it well. But it’s good to aid it with other items if you have good options…

(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #24

Out of curiosity, how is such a protocol defined?

A ketogenic diet is by definition one that lowers serum insulin sufficiently to permit the liver to make ketone bodies. This inevitably involves restricting carb intake, because the glucose in carbohydrates (they are actually nothing but glucose molecules arranged in various ways) is what raises serum insulin. Once insulin is low enough, you can prioritise your protein intake and add enough fat to compensate for the energy lost to the carb restriction.

This works, because (1) protein has far less of an effect on serum insulin when carb intake is minimal, and (2) fat intake has no effect on serum insulin. Also, given the relative caloric values of the macronutrients, it takes 400 g of carbohydrate to yield 1200 (kilo)calories, yet it only takes 133.3 g of fat to reach the same caloric value.

(Bob M) #25

That’s too bad. What about eggs? Fish? Any other animal-based proteins?

Even dairy, but you have to be able to handle dairy. Many cannot.

(Alvin Kim) #26

I have access to conventionally raised eggs and canned fish but that’s about it. I have absolutely no appetite for the fish though so I’m just eating eggs, bacon and processed sliced cheese. And salads of course.

(Robin) #27

Hang in there with what you’re doing. Is it perfect? Of course not, but you’ll get there. Good luck!

(Allie) #28

Deli meats are way more expensive than buying the cheaper and more fatty cuts of meat, I could never sustain myself on deli meats. Ground beef, chicken thighs / drumsticks / wings - way preferable.

#29

It’s pork and sometimes turkey for me. All the other meats are either too expensive or I have other problems with them (cheap chicken is tasteless and leaves me hungry - but it can be a great option for many, I know people like it… liver is too nutritious, sadly… IDK about other organs but they are less available).

I saw ground beef considered affordable many times but it’s just not true for everyone everywhere. It’s clearly way too expensive for me (and I rather buy normal cuts for the same price, of course) so I only eat the cheaper beef cuts once per 1-4 months. It is a great addition, I protect my tiny amount but I am happier with my pork anyway. Some people don’t find it satiating though.
I know nothing about South Korea prices beyond meat being expensive as the OP wrote.

Deli meats here start above chicken thigh (I always consider the price on sale. I buy nearly every major food item on sale only, we have nice sales all the time so it’s easy) but those are crappy, don’t worth it, no matter how poor we are (if I was poorer, I would eat more split peas and gluten, much better. NOTHING beats split pea prices, it’s the cheapest protein source I can find. mere calories are cheap but I need my high protein. I just mildly dislike the stuff and find it boring. so I hope I can keep my meats).
And they end somewhere around fancy steak prices, of course.
My deli meat and other processed stuff starts at moderately prices pork level and ends a bit above beef thigh level, whatever that beef cut is called in English. We like the word “thigh” (in Hungarian, of course) here, apparently so green ham, chicken quarters and whatever the beef cut is called simply “thigh” (okay, the chicken one is more like “thigh with rump”). I can’t afford having my meat in general that pricy, we spend the vast majority of our income on food already. My fresh meat costs about half as much as my processed meats for the same weight but I eat very very very little processed meats for various reasons. A little accent is nice but that’s it.
I am glad our meat prices are like this so I don’t feel a financial force to eat worse stuff than what I eat, it’s not the greatest either but the greatest isn’t even easily available :frowning: The local farms I know about very rarely offer meat beyond the processed kind.

So now I am curious about the South Korea prices… :thinking:

(Bob M) #30

Can you get some of the cheaper meats, like liver or kidney? Maybe even brain? Liverwurst or bologna (if they have those there).

This is what’s on sale where I live:

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One pound is about 1/2 a kilogram. The exchange rate is a bit wacky:

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But hopefully, there’s something out there that’s not too expensive you can eat. Like you, I’m not that fond of fish.

(Luke) #31

Dirty Keto to my way of thinking was when I pushed limits with foods that would maybe kick me out of ketosis , but would stay in ketosis , but was not very healthy. If you are looking to cure any disease, give it a proper go with all the good keto foods and recipes. I feel very well off steak and eggs. Eat a big bowl of salad a day , an avo. :raised_hands:t2: Good luck.