A calorie is not a calorie. But why?

(Doug) #41

Good stuff, Nick. Getting colder more often - I had not heard of this, but if so then that’s another good point.

Only time I felt cold was about 3 days into my very first fast, really just that my feet felt cool enough for it to be good to get under the covers that night. Since then, never felt cold, although there’s a lot of variation, still. One time, in the past year, after several days fasting, in the evening I got a really warm feeling around my shoulders, and this slowly spread to the top of my head - it was an astoundingly pleasurable sense of warmth and well-being; unique to me in ~30 fasts.

There have been a few times where I get hot and sweaty at night, waking up with a wet pillow - something’s definitely going on there. And while not necessarily related to RMR, those periods of “euphoria” that some people get, while fasting - really rare for me but I’ve had a few, sprinkled in there.

(Doug) #42

At first glance, it sounds like PP “goes into starvation mode.”

A lot of the RMR readings on his chart were taken after fasting for 12 hours or a little more. To get a true “baseline” reading for the fasted state, I’d like to see more like 18 hours - that way digestion and absorption should really all be done (or done enough for all practical purposes - the small intestine really trails off in the emptying process, rather than matter traveling through as a ‘plug’ and exiting all at once).

While I’m not sure of the absolute accuracy of it, it’s common to see estimates of 10% of our energy going for the digestion of food, thus my thinking that fully going from Fed to Fasted should bring a 200+ calorie decline in RMR, all other things being equal.

(Windmill Tilter) #43

Could be, but it still wouldn’t explain the magnitude of the drops. Something weird seems to be going on. His RMR is definitely not a smooth line like the one in Dr. Fung’s chart in the Obesity Code!

(Doug) #44

Totally agree - I wish we had “fully fed” RMR readings (this is assuming that RMR can include such states, while BMR necessarily excludes them).

PP’s lower readings were evidently taken in the morning, after having fasted for some hours overnight and longer, at times. The study Fung quotes doesn’t have a “Day 0” reading (that I’ve seen, anyway) - the first thing we see on that chart is “Day 1” which was at least 10 or 11 hours into fasting. That’s pretty much the same as PP’s morning readings, but I’d like to see for all parties how it compares to fully-fed.

It’s certainly a world of difference - the Fung-quoted study has REE and VO2 really jumping from Day 1 to Day 2, peaking higher on Day 3, then declining slightly on Day 4.

#45

Could be the ramifications of one’s digestive strength and elimination speed - as well as GI tract/microbiome health? Never thought of whether speedier elimination means less caloric/fat absorption…it’s intriguing.

My digestion is speedy and elimination is generally twice per day. I’m a big fan of cooking with Ginger, and supplementing with it in dry form (at least 1 gram per day most days). Ginger facilitates absorption of nutrients due to its enzymatic & circulatory actions as well as facilitates functional speed - so in that case, could be assisting in keeping winter weight at bay. As I’ve eaten digestives like Ginger/chillies/garlic for some decades, it could be a factor in why my metabolic health and fat ratio is so much better than my bio relatives who are mostly all obese and ill by age 40 or 50 even though I’ve only been officially LCHF in recent years.

Regardless of digestive speed - I think the body naturally wants to store more energy and feel cozy in winter! Thus my reliance on daily mugs of collagen broth and/or tea to fill the gap created by not feasting on roasted salted nuts and other treats that can spill over from actual holidays to the entire months of Jan/Feb/Mar!

(Neil) #46

Hi! Just checking in since I saw that there’s been some discussion of my RMR data. :slight_smile: I’m traveling a bunch at the start of the year and won’t be able to bring my RMR testing machine with me, but once things settle down I’m happy to help gather some more data on this. I’ll just have to work it around the rest of life.

I’m enjoying the discussion!

(Windmill Tilter) #47

That would be awesome. It will be really fascinating to see how your RMR has adjusted now that your in more of a “maintenance” stage. :+1: :+1: :+1:

(Bob M) #48

I just heard (on the low carb MD podcast) with Jason Fung a discussion of some studies. One study was where they took obese teens and replaced their high-fructose drinks with starch. They lost massive amounts of liver fat. Fung was saying that if you weigh 150 pounds, you effectively have 150 pounds that can deal with glucose. But the only thing that metabolizes fructose is the liver. This might explain why high “starch” people don’t necessarily get fat. (I have to say, though, that rice, even heated and cooled, still causes my blood sugar to go through the roof; so, I’m not so sure about this theory. And high PUFA intakes also have to be taken into consideration.)

Another study was a Phinney study, isocaloric, three levels of carbs. The low carbers reversed their markers of insulin resistance without losing weight. The other two did not do as well.

Of course, Fung was disgusted with the CICO folk and had lots to say about calories.

(Bob M) #49

Really? You never get cold? I had to stop fasting for a while, because I got way too cold, to the point where I couldn’t touch my own hands.

Now, I take breaks between fasts, and only fast one 36 hour fast per week or one long fast per week. And then I try to ensure I eat enough when feasting.

That seems to have worked, although I will still get colder at night most times. And sleep is always an issue. I usually sleep less.

I’ve been fasting about 4.5 years, done 15+ 4.5+ day fasts, many more 3+ day fasts, many, many more 36 hour fasts, usually eat 2 meals per day.

(Justin Jordan) #50

When I first started this current stretch of ADF* fasting, in week two I had a couple days when I was cooler than usual (and, actually, I was cooler than normal - I shook hands with someone who commented on my hands being cold). And then it stopped.

Something similar happened when I was losing weight to begin with - I had a stretch (a week or two) where I was colder than usual, and then I cranked back up to my usual blast furnace self.

In me, this rebound doesn’t seem to have anything to do with what I’m doing - food intake and activity remained stable. My suspicion is that my metabolism just adjusts back to my version of normal.

*Really, I’m try to do three non consecutive fasts of a minimum of 36 hours - this month the days are mostly Sunday, Tuesday, Friday, but ADF is easier to say and close enough.

(Utility Muffin Research Kitchen) #51

Personally I compare the mechanics for metabolic syndrome with getting a fire going. Sugar and white flour are the leaves or little twigs that burn easily, while complex carbs are the bigger logs (maybe a bit damp), Omega-6 oils, emulsifiers and all that crap are the various fluids that will quickstart a fire. You need enough of the little stuff to get the fire burning, but once it burns it will burn just fine using only the big logs.

Once you have metabolic syndrome glucose will convert to fructose via the polyol pathway and the “good” carbs are metabolized in a completely different way.

This is why I’m so interested in a Kraft “glucose” pattern. Kraft tests are not practical for me (unknown over here, and expensive), but there have to be characteristic patterns in glucose response after a meal. Figuring them out, and see how they change long-term on a low carb diet, would give us a DIY check if we’re improving, apart from HOMA-IR.

See my other thread: https://www.ketogenicforums.com/t/fasting-glucose-and-kraft-tests/96306

(Doug) #52

Bob, yeah, lucky, I guess (and plenty of fat yet to burn here too). Have you ever measured the temperature of those cold hands?

The “at home” version of heating/cooling will usually only result in a gain of about 1% resistant starch, so that leaves 99% as much digestible starch as if one just cooked the rice and ate it - not going to be any meaningful change.

(Utility Muffin Research Kitchen) #53

Wow. I often feel cold even with OMAD/IF. I wonder if I should maybe go back to 2 meals a day for a while in order to raise my base metabolic rate. Plenty of fat to burn too, about 40 more pounds above ideal weight. But with chronic disease it’s better to aim for autophagy, even if the BMR drops a bit…

Not sure about rice, but potatos aren’t that bad. They have about 17g carbs (cooked), which drops to 15g or something if kept in the fridge overnight. So 250g roast potatos (that I indulge in maybe once a month) is less than 40g carbs, a far cry from the 300g a day in the SAD.

(Doug) #54

I’ve never seen anything that really proves that about potatoes. Rice, as I understand it, is where the largest gains in resistant starch have been achieved - and this was getting it up to 5% or 6% by several days of heating and cooling cycles - I’m thinking this was in a Korean or Japanese university laboratory, among a vast number of trials.

Even in that “state of the art” example, the digestible starch is still going to be at 94% or 95%, thus my largely shrugging my shoulders and shaking my head at the whole deal. :wink:

#55

Thing is - RS rice is not just about heating and cooling! A pivotal factor is in the reheating technique - via sufficient frying.

Have you tried sealing the rice by frying it well in plenty fat to heat it up? The RS rice protocol I follow involves that frying as key to seal it so it goes past the stomach. My understanding is that if done right it makes it to the large intestine where it’s then digested by the good bacteria.

Otherwise if one adds to cooled rice to, say, soup, the starch just dissolves quick in the stomach etc. There was a time or two when I improperly reheated the rice and felt the effect of eating straight simple starch, unpleasant.

(Utility Muffin Research Kitchen) #56

The figures I’ve seen is that it adds a couple of percent RS based on total weight, not as percent of the carbs. I found this article claiming that more than half of the calories can be converted, but it gives no link to a study.

Frankly I don’t get this universal hate for carbs. It’s just as bad as the mainstream universal hate for fat. I’m with you as far as refined carbs are concerned, but not unrefined carbs from starchy vegetables.

In the end it comes down to a simple question: Is a ketogenic diet the optimal diet for all of us, or would it be more healthy to eat some carbs, provided they are in their natural form (starchy vegetables, legumes) and not refined? Our ancestors didn’t eat ketogenic all the time. If you believe that a paleo-diet is ideal, you’ll integrate some carbs.

I’m with Robb Wolf here: I think metabolic flexibility is a good thing, we’re built to eat some carbs (unprocessed, seasonal) and to alternate stretches with carbs (summer) and ketogenic stretches (winter). I don’t see any evidence that there is harm in eating some carbs for metabolically healthy people, as long as we stick to the pattern of our hunter-and-gatherer ancestors who mostly ate 15-20 percent carbs. Integrating the occasional carby meal might be more beneficial than going strict keto 100% of the time. After all, there is a consistent pattern that a little stress is beneficial, too much isn’t good, regardless of whether it’s stress from allergens, exercise, alcohol or lectins. Small amount will make your body more robust because it will learn how to react to those adverse substances. Why should carbs be different?

Of course someone in MetS should go strict keto in order to reverse it, but it’s a different story if you’re metabolically healthy. Maybe the sugar/insulin spikes we see in people on a strict keto diet are just there because their body has forgotten how to deal with carbs.

#57

I’ve heard this coldness from many people even just doing IF…
I simply never felt cold just because I ate in some way. Not during my 40-120 hour fasts, not when I did OMAD and I don’t remember being cold even when I actually starved for 11 days in an unheated house in winter (I used lots of clothes and blankets and I suppose my mind was busy with other things? I needed a job. Normally I am definitely cold sitting in a significantly warmer house than that).
Sometimes I wonder if I don’t feel cold because I almost never lose fat but I surely did that in my longest fasts and starvation. I suppose my body dislike being in “panic! it’s FAMINE” mode, it’s an optimist just like me so it takes a lot to lower my body temperature. In the first days, it burns energy as usual or almost and even if my metabolism drops later (I don’t know when and how much but it must be done, I don’t even have enough extra fat to depend on it very much), it doesn’t target my body temperature first. After I have lost a significant amount of fat, I felt no difference and it’s something people usually complain about, being so cold in a slimmer body while they was so warm while they were fatter, the changes are often drastic and it’s non-existent in my case. I still have some extra fat and I am curious if it will change. But my slim SO isn’t cold either and this house is very cold for the average person in this country… He feels cold when hungry though (9-10 hours after breakfast). I am very rarely really hungry but I am never cold just because that.
Cold extremeties while sitting in my room, that happens. I am not cold at all, just my extremities. I can cover everything but my poor nose. While my trunk feels wonderfully warm covered by a single layer or two. I get it, priorities and not wasting too much energy but I prefer warm extremities… Oh well. Was I a proper animal, I would run around and get warm… I almost never need gloves outside. Only in my room.

(Bob M) #58

I tried using resistant starch in many forms (potato starch, others) for 5-6 months, along with many different probiotics. After experiencing only detriments, and doing more research in this area, I gave up. For instance, you say that the rice is digested by “good” bacteria. What makes you think they are “good” and not “bad”? And why do you need to take in rice at all to have a beneficial microbiome?

Anyway, I will eat potatoes at times, although my blood sugar takes a hit from potatoes. See this for instance:

image
image.png802×306 88 KB

(Utility Muffin Research Kitchen) #59

Some bacteria will convert resistant starches into short-chain fatty acid that we need for our immune system. They also produce a lot of neurotransmitters, including serotonin. AFAIK we’re talking about soluble fiber here, not insoluble.

There is some dispute on whether we need fiber at all or whether we get those fatty acids in meat too. Still, I’ve heard several times that people took a hit to their mood after switching from keto to carnivore (e.g. fiber to no fiber). And of course we adapt to our food, we will see significant changes in the amount of gut bacteria within a couple of days after switching to a different food composition.

I don’t think we need rice in our diet. But I do think it’s beneficial to eat fiber now and then, but we should favor soluble fiber.

(Bob M) #60

I’m familiar only with benefits for this, not detriments. You know of detriments?

For anyone who believes that we know about our biome, I just request you do some research and try to figure out what we know. Talk about the Wild West of research!

One could also start here, though I would say we can easily challenge the theory that fiber is good:

In mice:

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-018-25190-5

This illustrates how quickly the biome can adjust:

When volunteers switched to the animal-based diet, bacteria including Bilophila wadsworthia, Alistipes putredinis and species in the genus Bacteroides quickly rose to prominence. Those bacteria can withstand bile, which the body releases after a person eats fat. On the meat diet, Alistipes and Bacteroides bacteria also began pumping out short-chain fatty acids. Some of the fatty acids have been associated with inflammation in animal studies, although this study did not measure long-term health effects. Interesting to contemplate who this observations fits with the stories of suppressed inflammation on the carnivore diet that have been discussed in some recent H.V.M.N. Podcasts.

For me, one of the key takeaways here is that the microbial changes are really very transient. This means if you want to really alter your microbiome you need to make changes and stick to them. The authors of the study hypothesize that this might have played a role in human evolution, saying that “consumption of animal foods by our ancestors was probably volatile, depending on season and foraging success, with readily available plant foods offering a fall-back source of calories and nutrients. Microbial communities that could quickly, and appropriately, shift their functional repertoire in response to diet change would have subsequently enhanced human dietary flexibility.”

From:

And then when you start wading through all of these papers, trying to determine why they say certain bacteria are “bad” and certain bacteria are “good”, you realize they say this in light of a high carb diet. The effects for low carb/keto/carnivore really aren’t known much at all. And this whole “diversity” thing appears to be poorly thought-through, as I’ve seen multiple people on the carnivore diet get a high diversity score. (And let’s not even get into actual testing of your microbiome, which is just so error prone as to be basically useless in my opinion.)

So, I can tell you honestly that we have no idea what’s good or what’s bad when it comes to the biome. If eating meat (even eating ONLY meat) was “bad” for the biome, our race would not exist today.