Severe Health Dangers from Plants~

#112

ok I will go with that…fruit of the sea LOL

I don’t know, I never use the word fruit anymore in my life. Other than when on forums and chatting this stuff, I don’t think I even ever say the word fruit :crazy_face: I say steak alot :stuck_out_tongue_closed_eyes:

#113

another good read

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #114

Would you say, then, that this is a high-steaks diet? :rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

(Sometimes I just slay me!) :grin:

#115

ok ok :crazy_face::partying_face:

yes I steak my claim to saying it is a high steaks menu for me.
I also live on a steak streak.

too funny!

#116

bump up for new zc people wanting some info about plant toxins and why some of us drop them from our lives…just a great read

#117

Circumstantial evidence supports the fact that, toxins or not, and whatever it was our ancestors ate, we’ve adapted very well to veggies. That’s how we’ve got to the billions we are now.

For each one of us who is a carnivore, how many of us aren’t? Take a look at countries with centenarians. Carnivores? How many of these centenarians are carnivores?

At some point we started to eat a super processed diet, with super processed fats, super processed ingredients and our health became worse. Supersize everything. And drive everywhere. Foods from around the globe that don’t grow where we live, unless we do… super processed agriculture.

How many people who have insulin related issues got them from eating spinach?

So, when it works for you to eat only meat (beware of the processed meat with all the chemicals!), that’s great. It doesn’t mean it is necessary, or even desirable for everybody.

Because for every example we can find here in the forums of a carnivore who’s doing well, there are a few million Asians, etc who are fine eating veggies and meats, not exclusively meats.

What kind of longterm experience do we have with sedentary people eating carnivore with today’s meats and sausages?

Our ancestors who ate exclusively, or almost exclusively, carnivore ate the meats of different animals and they hunted that meat. Everything was different.

Yesterday, I’ve got a lot of chicken (our ancestors ate farmed chicken?) from a shop (the farmer killed it for me and plucked all the feathers) which I drove to (sedentarism). Today I’ll bake it in the oven (gas, no collecting wood and fighting like mad to start and keep a fire with hands, stones and wood) with salt (that I didn’t have to follow animals to find a lick and get it and transport it myself, without an ultra light backpack while herding the children).

Voilà my carnivore lifestyle.

I still think it’s our whole lifestyle that makes us sick. Not just what we eat. And I definitely don’t blame insulin resistance on all the evil broccoli and spinach I ate. I think it was the things I knew I shouldn’t be eating, the processed stuff, the non local stuff. The ones tasting too good.

(Vic) #118

Plants are toxic.
Humans can deal with the toxins to a degree.

Humans can survive as herbivores.
Also as pure Carnivores.
And anything inbetween as omnivores.

The big question is wat should we do if we can choose, to thrive and live long and be healthy.

The herbivores by choice (vegans) seem to suffer catastrophic health failure within 4 years. Sadly because many ha e their hart in the right place.

The omnivores around 50% of calories from meat don’t seem to last a lifetime of good health either. 30, 40years and the misery begins with insulin resistance as a good indicater that health is failing.

What about Carnivores, they seem to do well? We can include the LCHF keto here, below 20gr of carbs a day doesn’t seem to harm the majority.

By choice I would say LCHF is the way to go. Pure carnivore is not required to stay healthy, but stay very close to it. Max 20gr of carbs from plants is good. We can handle the toxins that come with it.

My personal choice is Carnivore, a choice, just because I love it.
Keto sub 20gr is a must for me, not a choice, more plants make me sick. I never want the joint pain back again.

#119

@Corals, yea I agree with alot of what you wrote in your post but I disagree with some too because it isn’t black and white for many ever with plant ingestion. :slight_smile:

absolutely agree as our food got worse thru processing and chem crap and more…along with general lifestyle/environment, etc, the decline of the entire population and more trigger disease such as diabetes and general malady hit the population.

It is the oxalates in spinach. You can’t pick just insulin issues when chatting plant toxins at all. It is what that particular plant toxin does in your body.
It’s isothiocyanates and sulforaphane for broccoli.

Insulin resistance is not the end all be all of anyone.

Of course humans can deal just as Vic said. Plants are our backup survival food method when healthy meat is not available. Nature gave us 2 ways. The body requires ONLY protein and fat for survival. Basics of life. Not one carb is required ever. But of course carbs can be processed for survival and that is a very good thing or none of us would be here today LOL

Vic’s post, I second all he said on it.

Where a person is on age, other health issues, our stress environment and more come into play also but age to me is a biggie. Alot of plant toxins we do ingest take time to build. A plant has thorns and more for protection but they can’t run, they need internal toxin loads to stay alive, thru bitter taste, real poisonous factors and more as we know.

So in the end, carnivore is the purest food intake one can survive on without loading any plant toxins into their body and like Vic said, when going carnivore so many older (and now the younger have alot of joint pain also!!) find that just being off plant intake has taken them out of misery…but again, like Vic said, a more extreme low carb menu be it just LC or a ‘follow keto macro guidelines’ the probably the easiest and best form of eating out there for every human.

My choice is not carnivore just because I am a meat hound. Plants give me all kinds of issues that I left by the wayside as I dumped them and plus, in all honesty the taste sucks rocks. I always knew I could live without one veg in my life and when I researched I could thru what the body requires, yea, I dumped all veg like a hot potatoe :slight_smile:

and also no one who doesn’t go all in carnivore will never know the health improvements they could have but if some try zero carb, and find they are in a better place on what little they can add back…like a few berries or fruit, or some veg they do like to ‘round out’ their eating experiences for long term to suit them…then cool. It is a good thing.

Like Vic I want to keep my such improved mental clarity, my anxiety levels down to almost nil now, no joint pain anymore to the level I had it, my improved thru the roof energy levels, my gut/bathroom issues are stellar! and a ton more benefits I received from carnivore just by dumping plants from my life.

Will all need this? Nope. But you can’t deny all plants carry a toxin level. It is real. It is science truth. It is fact. But how they react to all individuals over time is personal.

I agree with you a look at our entire lifestyles now is key.

But I also know that ‘we are what we eat’ holds alot of big truth and it is one that I sure agree with.

#120

Vic that was a darn good post :+1:

#121

There are lots of healthy lifetime vegans and omnivores though. Most of the healthy people aren’t carnivores - as there are too few carnivores but way more healthy people. Not like “healthy” is some exact thing but still, we can work with it.

I definitely feel about as healthy as after decades with almost no meat (okay, that’s almost now :D) so I don’t think meat is particularly important for me if I get my nutrients elsewhere. I mostly eat meat because it turned out I am even more okay with extreme low-carb so meat is a must.
My SO would suffer on a woe with much meat or low-carb, it seems (it’s not like he can try it for a long time but there are hints). I expect he will be quite healthy at 110 years old after his life long HCHF woe but we will see. He is very young still, not even 42, of course he had no health problem yet (except the lack of his spleen) though most people aren’t like him. Humans are horribly sickly! But genes play a huge role too. Good genes, good lifestyle, the right woe for us, all should be right for our planned very long, very healthy life. We can’t afford to make an important factor wrong.
Corals has right, there are many factors, it’s not just eating plants or not. But that may be an important factor as well. Much plants would be a problem for me (and not at all for my SO, apparently), it’s mostly an indirect effect though, adding plants make way more important changes to my woe.

But our case is just a very early N=2 so it’s insignificant (except for ourselves when we make our decisions for ourselves). We have much data, lots of people are strong and healthy as a vegan so it’s possible. Many are sick, sure, it’s easy to do it wrong, after all and it’s not good for everyone. I probably could survive without big health problems but I would be miserable on my super low-carb plant-based woe, yuck. And the mental problems would cause physical problems and I would still die early… But maybe not, I can’t possibly know. Fortunately I can choose and even with fails, I can keep my woe okay enough. I like to be an omnivore, be it no or much meat. Not like little meat has a significant chance at this point but I probably could live quite healthily as a vegetarian low-carber if some outer force would demand so. It wouldn’t be ideal, I hope it never happens but I wouldn’t suffer much or get sick… But it’s just a hypothesis again (based on my experiences in my younger times but with less knowledge and on a way worse woe. even my exercise wasn’t good enough).

I don’t need sub 20g but 20g from plants is awfully much for me, that easily messes with my mind. I prefer it being 0-2g, occasionally, with a good reason a bit more… But I still fail a lot (it’s still not so bad, I can handle much more if it’s an isolated happening). In average, I should get the (vast) majority of my carbs from animals, that’s the right way. It’s needed for me staying on keto, actually. It wasn’t always the case but it is now.

And I don’t believe that a plant matter that is designed to be eaten because the plant itself wanted that is toxic, it’s not very logical but I don’t care anyway. I can handle it in moderation. (Fruit. The number one enemy to my carnivore plans nowadays. Even my disdain towards sugar isn’t effective enough.)
Many other plant matter has problematic substances, it’s known. But as my body handles them quite fine, it’s really my choice and I don’t need to worry about it. When I consumed 100 times as much every day, I still felt no problem so this drastically reduces amount should work wonderfully. While worrying definitely would harm my health.

(Gabe “No Dogma, Only Science Please!” ) #122

While I am open to concerns about lectins, I am extremely leery of non-peer-reviewed random PDFs on the internet that claim all plants will kill you. I’m currently on carnivore temporarily (and I bet it’s stricter than most other people’s carnivore – no eggs, no oils, nothing but meat) and I’m doing fine with it, but I don’t for a minute think there’s enough evidence to even remotely consider never returning to plants, as I will in about a week.

I get it, if it’s working for you, all power to you. But there’s no need to make it a religion. 99.999% of people, including epileptic children on ultra-strict ketogenic diets, will be fine with some veggies.

(Vic) #123

How can Shinita, fangs or me be religious about carnivore, we clearly make our own rules and do our own thing as we please.
This is not how following a dogma works. You need a new discription for us :wink:

How is your reset diet going, besides fine do you get the results you want?

(bulkbiker) #124

Which nobody here has claimed at all…

Yet another pathetic attempt to start a row where none existed.

#125

no one is claiming that at all. it is plant toxins can harm your internal organs and more. Easily read up on every single veggie/plant eaten and ALL have science showing ‘what is bad’ in them. Real science, real facts. Just cause someone compiles real facts doesn’t make it wrong but I know I fact checked all of it :slight_smile:

not a religion. it is an eating plan that suits many people who require to be here and on plan as it is written and advised, no diff. than being keto or just lc.

also yes, many can get away with eating veg, doesn’t mean they don’t hold toxic properties. All plant matter does. Any veg, google it and find out the chem compounds and species etc and you can find the wrong with it…not saying it is gonna kill ya at all unless one is chowing down on foxglove, some nightshades and more :slight_smile:

So I get your post tho…those who can eat some veg and do well and want that lifestyle cool. Not a thing wrong with it.

I know I ain’t the global food police for everyone HAHA

@MarkGossage
thank you Mark. You see so much so clearly :slight_smile:

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #126

There are other health problems that result from eating too much broccoli and spinach, and they are greater in some people than in others. The metabolic problems with the standard Western diet seem to be more closely related to the presence of industrial seed oils, cheap refined sugar, and highly refined grains, that is true, and any diet that causes us to eat less of those things will inevitably improve our health.

The types of problems caused by plants tend to be subtler and more varied. Amber O’Hearn is a carnivore because only eliminating plants from her diet resolved her depression from Type II bipolar disorder. Georgia Ede eliminated plants from her diet because that was the only way she could deal with certain physical and mental health problems. Michaela Peterson is probably the extreme example of someone damaged by plants in her diet. Many people develop kidney and gall stones from the oxalates in the plants they eat, including broccoli and spinach.

Yes, there are many people who do fine on the plants in their diet. But many people who think they’ve been doing fine start to find out otherwise, once they eliminate their gross metabolic symptoms by going keto. These are often the people who move on to strict carnivore.

But given that agriculture was only discovered about 12,000 years ago, it is far too soon to claim that we have adapted well to eating a diet that contains more plants than meat. Human evolutionary history to date consists of 1,988,000 years of eating almost exclusively meat, before the introduction of agricultural products into the food supply, so we’ve been eating plants in quantity for only 0.6% of our evolutionary history.

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #127

This looks pretty close:

Not to pick on Vic specifically. Others here have said the same elsewhere many, many times.

True @Carnivoor didn’t say all plants and he also admits “humans can deal with the toxins to a degree” so, I presume he means that death might not result immediately. And… he also admits that ‘humans’ can survive as herbivores, although then claims they “seem to suffer catastrophic health failure within 4 years.” I’d like to see some scientific evidence to back up that claim. As @Corals points out above, there are many societies that eat mostly plant food and seem to be healthy enough to live a century or more. That’s something.

I don’t think @gabe is trying to start a ‘row’ but rather pointing out an obvious bias that borders on blind fanaticism. I’m no advocate for plant food, as I think is fairly obvious from many of my posts here. I’m really an advocate for eating intelligently based on what we know about human evolution and metabolism. Not based on ideology.

Humans evolved eating primarily carnivore. There is no serious doubt about it since there was no other viable option. Eating an occasional handful of berries or nuts didn’t make us human. Eating fat and meat did. But that doesn’t mean our ancestors didn’t eat the occasional handful of berries or nuts and metabolize them beneficially. So making a claim that any plant-based material that passes your lips is ‘toxic’ is just nonsense. Yes, I know that many plants, including some that are eaten in fairly large amounts on typical SAD, contain stuff like oxalic acid and various sundry phytochemicals many of which are deleterious to humans.

It is also beyond doubt that the transition from a fat/meat-centric diet of our hunter gatherer ancestors to the plant/carb-centric diet of our more immediate farmer ancestors resulted in a great deal of metabolic and health problems. Or that the excessive processing and addition of seed oils extracted by heat, pressure and solvents made a bad situation even worse.

We don’t know everything but we know a lot. You’ll get no argument from me that the current world-wide trifecta of metabolic disease is most likely the direct result of misinformed food guidelines issued by governments around the world, starting with the USofA in the 1970s. The demonization of meat and saturated fats and the promotion of grains, starches and seed oils was in my opinion a colossal health disaster. Maybe an even more colossal health disaster than the domestication and cultivation of grains 8-10 kya that Michael Eades documents so well.

If you have a personal issue with any particular food, whether plant-based, dairy or whatever, then it makes sense to avoid that food. I know that a lot of folks eat carnivore because they have health and/or nutrition issues with one or more plant foods and/or dairy. But don’t make blanket statements about ‘toxic’ plants unless you can back up the claims with verifiable evidence. Otherwise you just sound like a religious shill, as noted by Gabe.

And @PaulL makes a good point that many folks may in fact have issues with various plant foods that they don’t discover until they start eating keto. Some of these folks find that going full/strict carnivore is required for a full recovery. Others, however, will thrive simply by eating strict keto and keeping all carbs low enough to sustain ketosis. Since plant food is the primarily source of carbs, that automatially means you’re eating very little.

(bulkbiker) #128

He does it continually.

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #130

Citation, please. Thanks.

(Vic) #131

Can’t find the study and the videoblog quickly. not a lot of free time on my hands. , you’ll come across it one day.
Deleted the post.

:wink:

(Gabe “No Dogma, Only Science Please!” ) #132

I’m not sure about this. @PaulL suggests that the consumption of carbs is a consequence of agriculture, so maybe. But if you look at indigenous tribes, they seem to have eaten what was there. Australian Aborigines seem to have eaten some fruits and veg for the last several tens of thousands of years, but indigenous Polynesian cuisine seems to have been even more carb-filled. Loads of bananas and taro and yam and breadfruit. Was this only since the advent of agriculture? I have no idea, but I haven’t seen any evidence that Polynesians were particularly unhealthy.

Gary Taubes, when The Case Against Sugar went to press, explained that he’d written the book because he’d been writing about nutrition for years, and felt the case against carbs was compelling, but hadn’t been able to explain why some cuisines, for instance that of the Japanese, contained so many starches yet without the deleterious effects noted in the industrialised West. (I can’t find a written reference, but I saw and heard him say this several times in podcasts and lectures he gave.)

It’s clear that folks like Peter Attia and Robert Lustig broadly agree that sugar is the number 1 culprit. Nobody can really tell us at this stage what the “optimal” level of carbohydrate in the diet is, nor exactly which carbohydrates are ideal for human health. Perhaps the answer is none and zero, but we literally have no idea at all, despite the interesting initial research we’ve seen about lectins etc.

Again, I’m currently on a strict carnivore diet. Nothing but meat and fish, not even exogenous oils. I’ll experiment with reintroducing items to my diet starting next week.

But for 99.9% of humanity, I think the advice to avoid sugars and starches is enough, at least for now. I’ve seen no evidence that meat is deleterious to human health (angering the vegans), and I’ve seen no evidence that vegetables in and of themselves are deleterious to human health, apparently angering the strict carnivores on here.

I’d be quite happy to have my mind changed, and in fact the coming weeks are the big experiment. I’ll let you know if I begin experiencing problems when I reintroduce bok choy next week! (I doubt it.)